Question about 30-06 wildcat cartridge

[drastic_quench]

30-06 diagram: http://i.imgur.com/ldbhYDU.png

Ever heard of anyone chopping 30-06 brass just before the shoulder to create a straight walled wildcat cartridge? From the diagram, the brass measures .441, so it'd take a round slightly smaller projectile -- perhaps a stock .430 44 mag? Just a guess - it may need something smaller.

What might the performance be like? 444 Marlin maybe?

 

[hartcreek]

Sure I use .308 or 30-06 case to make .44 automag cases.

 

[jakk280rem]

Sounds like a good idea. First I heard of it was in a Dirty Hairy movie back in the eighties. Every time I think of a wildcat, I find out I am several decades late to the party. Just a few weeks ago I was hankering for a lever rifle that was light enough to carry around, had enough speed to reach as far as I can see with enough oomph to kill a coyote clean when it gets there. I decided a 30-30 necked down to 25 Cal would be just the ticket. And it is. Or has been since 1895.

 

[Field Tester]

Sounds like a good idea. First I heard of it was in a Dirty Hairy movie back in the eighties. Every time I think of a wildcat, I find out I am several decades late to the party. Just a few weeks ago I was hankering for a lever rifle that was light enough to carry around, had enough speed to reach as far as I can see with enough oomph to kill a coyote clean when it gets there. I decided a 30-30 necked down to 25 Cal would be just the ticket. And it is. Or has been since 1895.

I think it was Beverly Hills Cop

 

[TRX]

.44 Auto Mag here, too... well, I have the RCBS forming set and a bag of brass, but I managed to scarf enough pre-made Starline AMP to keep me going for a while, so I haven't actually mutilated any brass yet.

Over in the "caliber conversion" subforum on gunco.net there's a lengthy thread about cutting a .30-06-.308-8mm case down and seating a .44 bullet to a length suitable for an AK-74 .223 or 5.45 magazine. http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37230

Some of it is AK-specific, but there's considerable discussion about the the fabrication of the proposed wildcat cartridge.

 

[Tirod]

And there are those cutting down .50 BMG to insert a slug. I expect that if the rifle cartridge was invented, that once on the market, some handloader would immediately start looking it over to see what could be done.

The old .30 Remington, now used as the wildcatted 6.8SPC, has a shoulder diameter of .402, or 10.2mm. Could it be loaded up with 10mm pistol rounds?

Bren 10mm Automag, anyone?

 

[Elkins45]

I thought about a similar thing but with surplus .308 military brass. I even went so far as to whip up a dummy round. Thread here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4822905&postcount=30

 

[hartcreek]

Jakk280rem

Are you a thinking of a 25-20 or 25-35. 25-35 is a bit much fer shootin coyotes unless you reload it like I does with 117 gr gaschecked bullets.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Brass length would be critical for headspacing and you would likely have headspace problems with a roll crimp.

Mike

 

[MichaelK]

I believe that is how the 450 Bushmaster cartridge evolved into being. The 450 can be made from cut-down 284 Winchester brass. That cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge, but it recieves a taper crimp, just like you would a 9mm or a .45ACP, so I don't think the roll-crimp concern is serious.

BTW, I would say though that a cartridge originally based on the .30-06 would be of limited utility, considering the available rifle actions we have today. What I would recommend however is a straight-sided cartridge originally based on either the 7.62X39mm, or the .308 Winchester. Then, you'd have a cartridge that was fireable from either an AR-15 or AR-10 platform.

Looking at the form factor of the 7.62X39 or the 6.5mm Grendel, I'd go with a 40 caliber bullet, whereas with the .308 Winchester you might want to increase that up to .430".

 

[hardluk1]

Closer to a 460s&w in case size, Shorter than 444 and longer than 445 supermag .

A wildcat with necked for 41 mag bullets would be interesting. 185 to 300gr bullets !!

Work with a full case length just necked up to .410.

never mind , already been done 400-06 by griffin & howe

 

[MistWolf]

...a cartridge originally based on the .30-06 would be of limited utility, considering the available rifle actions we have today...

The 308 was made from the 30-06 case

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As others have said, your problem would be headspacing. The .458 Win Mag is based on the .375 H&H case, and is made exactly as you describe -- but that's a belted case, and it headspaces on the belt.

Headspacing on the mouth would be difficult for such a cartridge -- However Hawk makes a .411 caliber wildcat based on the .30-06 cases.

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm

 

[MichaelK]

The 308 was made from the 30-06 case

That's correct. The .30-06 case can be SHORTENED to make a .308 case. A cartridge based on the 30-06 will be too LONG to fit inside a AR-10 magazine well.

Sure you can make the autoloading version of the .444, but what are you planning on shooting it in? It has to be tailored to fit inside an AR-10 magazine, unless you are talking about designing something new from scratch.

 

[MistWolf]

The point is, if you use an '06 case, it can be cut down to fit a short action. You don't have to start with a 308 case

 

[MichaelK]

Actually, yes it does. As you go lower and lower on a long case, the brass thickness gets greater and greater. At a certain point, it make manipulation of the brass too much of a chore because besides just cutting it down, it also has to be reamed out or turned on a lathe to get back to a reasonable thickness. That's one thing you must pay carefull attention to when reforming brass. Necks can get dangerously thick and not release the bullet, drasticly raising pressures.

That's one factor I was including in my design suggestions. If any wildcat has any hope of acceptance at all, it must be easy to make the brass for it. Do a search on "neck turning" if you want some more information about the process.

 

[twofifty]

Like MichaelK said, wall thickness might delay bullet release.

Too thick a wall could also create obduration problems, i.e. delayed or poor gas seal.

 

[MistWolf]

Actually, yes it does. As you go lower and lower on a long case, the brass thickness gets greater and greater. At a certain point, it make manipulation of the brass too much of a chore because besides just cutting it down, it also has to be reamed out or turned on a lathe to get back to a reasonable thickness. That's one thing you must pay carefull attention to when reforming brass. Necks can get dangerously thick and not release the bullet, drasticly raising pressures.

That's one factor I was including in my design suggestions. If any wildcat has any hope of acceptance at all, it must be easy to make the brass for it. Do a search on "neck turning" if you want some more information about the process.

Your points are details that must be taken into account anytime a new cartridge is developed, not reasons why it would be impossible to start with an '06 case

 

[Kp321]

Back to the original question, the round described was wildcatted in the 1960's and was called the 44 Leaverpower. Head spacing was a problem thus the 444 was developed with a rim for headspace. The story back then was that the rimmed case was an intermediate step in forming 30-06 at the factory. Supposedly someone involved with the Leaverpower knew that the rimmed 30-06 existed, at least for a few minutes, so obtained some from a friend in the factory and the 444 was born.
The story might be an urban legend but there was an article about it in one of the magazines I read as a teenager in the 60's.

 

[joustin]

The 444 has a large rim, I'd like to compare with a 308 to see the difference

 

[MichaelK]

This in fact may be a mute point. What we are talking about is making a big-bore cartridge throwing out a heavy bullet. These actually already exist for the AR platform in the calibers 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM, and the 50 Beowulf.

Why put much effort into making an autoloading 44 cartridge when you can just go out an buy a ready-to-shoot 45 caliber upper? BTW, there are some that make their own 450 cases out of .284 Winchester brass. As mentioned above, the problem with that is the brass is too thick, and you have to ream out the brass to make the case-mouths the right thickness.

My next personal project is to make a hand load for my new 450 Bushmaster out of my own home-swaged bullets. I'm looking at drawn 45ACP brass as my jacket material. It will look a little like this 44 bullet I've already made out of 40S&W brass.