Question about dents in .45 ACP brass (1911)

Status
Not open for further replies.

mattw

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
1,880
So I shot my Colt WWI repro for the first time yesterday. I shot 28 rounds, four mags, without a hitch. I was very happy with the accuracy that I was getting on an empty water jug at 15 yards and the pistol felt very natural in my hands, more so than my Springfield Armory 1911-A1.

I have decided that I want to start reloading. Before I buy the cheap single stage kit I am going to shoot up all the factory ammo (except for maybe one box) that I have left for my .45s. So I collected the brass after the short test fire of my new 1911.

I was shooting outdoors and lost most of the empty shell casings to tall grass. I only was able to recover 8.

Out of the 8 that I did recover I examined the brass and found the characteristic dent that a standard 1911 ejection port puts on them, no suprise. I also noticed some hard ejector strikes on all the cases, hard enough to make a mark, not sure if this is normal but when I think about how fast that little case impacts the stationary ejector it makes sense. I also noticed a little spot on the rim where the extractor was marring the casing, this also seemed normal after some thought on how the casing is flung off the edge of the extractor's hook.

The only thing I couldn't make any sense of was on 2 of the 8 recovered cases there was a deep dent in the middle of the case, like someone stabbed it with a small screwdriver. It looks close but neither of the two dents on the case wall penetrated.

This was brand new factory winchester ammo shot from a brand new handgun and I've never seen dents like that on casings shot from 1911s. If it were just one I would dismiss it as something that might've happened before firing, but it was two of them.

Any Ideas? Is this something I should worry about? I'll try to get a picture later.
 
Dents

Hold the pistol up and look at the right side...right at the rear of the port. See the corner formed by the slide flat? That's what's knockin' that ding in the cases. It comes from the case rolling off the extractor at 3 O'Clock instead of 2. Unless I miss my guess, the "Characteristic" mark is a "V" shaped dent at the case mouth. That's the other part of ejecting at 3 O'Clock. The case exits low and strikes the wall of the port as it releases.

A light radius on the bottom corner of the extractor hook may change the extractor's release point enough to let the case twist free on a higher angle.

L-I-G-H-T-L-Y breaking the top corner may also help. Do one at a time and note the change. If that doesn't effect a 2 O'Clock ejection, the only other place to go is the nose of the ejector...and the short, GI-type ejectors don't lend themselves to a whole lotta tweakin'.
 
1911tuner:

Thank on my behalf too! My WWI Reproduction and my Series 70 Reproduction both do this. They both really dent the brass deeply...as in half-closed! But, they are both extraordinarily accurate and fully reliable, so I thought it must be normal. I thought it was due to the slides not being lowered and flared.

Thanks again,

Doc2005
 
Ok here are the pictures.

I tried to arrange them in the severity of the dent on the middle of the case from non-existant to the worst

100_0260.gif

Heres a shot of the two worst ones on the end

100_0261.gif

The worst one by itself.

100_0262.gif
 
In that last shot you can clearly see the big dent, the V shaped scrape, and the part where the extractor ripps on the case rim.

So you think that the big dent is from the slide flat, tuner? Still an ejection-port issue?
 
re:

Matt...Yep. Sho 'nuff do.

The extractor damage suggests that the hook might be a little too deep from the tip to the rim's tensioning wall, and causing the rim to get trapped between the hook and the ejector nose. More likely to happen with extended ejectors...but not unheard of with the standard "GI-length."

.034-.036 inch is about right.
 
That's mild! Mine are bent nearly half-closed across the opening. :) Sounds like something to have looked into. After all, these are my favorite pistols! I have to take care of them now that I know something is up, even if it is trivial. The other thing that I have notes is a tendency for the ejecting cartridges to smack-me-up-aside-the-head when they eject. I always have to wear a cap when I shoot them...especially the series 70. I will try to remember to follow up with what I learn.
 
So Tuner,

Do you think this is something that could be fixed by having the extractor tuned up? Are those dings in the case wall going to stop if I take this pistol to my 'smith and tell him about the problem? What I mean to ask is: is this an easy thing to address and won't require a 1911 extractor guru?

Do you think those dings are going to come out alright if I try to resize the brass? Or is the integrity of the casing compromised because of this?

I know the V-shaped dent is nothing to worry about for reloading but the stab-mark in the middle of the case is what concerns me.

Also the V-shaped dents seem to be more extreme on some cases and non-existant on others. Further proof that I have an erratic extraction issue?
 
You should try tackling the extractor yourself - it's not difficult, Tuner gave you the keys above and he has a sticky somewhere at the top of the 'smithing forum that discusses extractors further....even if you somehow mess it up (go slow, try often), a replacement is inexpensive.
/Bryan
 
Good idea, having a 1911 on the table for an extractor issue is probably annoying and boring to a gunsmith.
 
re:

Doc wrote:
>The other thing that I have notes is a tendency for the ejecting cartridges to smack-me-up-aside-the-head when they eject.<
***************

Doc...The hard dent indicates that the cases are trying to eject even lower than 3 O'Clock, and would do so even if the port were to be lowered far more than is wise and prudent. The case bounces off the port wall, and into the slide's path. The slide whacks it in mid-bounce...and straight back at your face. Tweakin' the extractor may help in your case...but it's likely that the ejector is at least half the blame. I have a GI Springfield that did the same thing. Replacing the ejector was the final cure.

Matt...Yours is fairly mild, and you can probably get it straightened out with a little extractor work. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that running a shock buff can make ejection go a little haywire in some guns, most notably the ones with standard-length ejectors. If you're runnin' a buff...take it out and see if that helps.

No...An extractor issue on the bench is anything but boring. Very often these can be cured with a little more or less tension...and sometimes it can get pretty involved. Since the extractor is one leg of the "Triangle of Reliability"...extractor tuning is a study in itself...and the more of'em I fool with, the more I learn about'em. Sometimes it can get pretty frustrating. Other times, it's a walk in the park. Kinda like Forrest Gump's "Box of Chocolates.";)
 
Nobody

has addressed the ding in the middle of the case which I beleive is causing the most concern to Matt. I believe these are caused by a dimple on the magazine follower.
 
Nope. That dimple on the follower won't mark the brass and removing it will lead to problems.

But, as usual, everyone focuses on the extractor in these cases and forgets the other member of the dance act, the ejector. The ejector shape and angle play a critical role in determining how the case ejects.

Jim
 
Tuner, I don't use shock-buffs. I've heard too much bad about them and I do not understand their purpose. I've never seen a 1911 frame that got wrecked because it didn't have a shock-buff and I've never shot a 1911 and thought, "Geez, I wish I could stick a little rubber thing behind my recoil spring to absorb some of this nasty kick!"

Mpmarty:

Mag follower? I do not see how a mag follower could make a mark like that. The dimple is not even that tall. I would have to have one hell of a mag spring in there to put that kind of pressure on the rounds. Even then I doubt I would be able to load the mag if the follower was pushing that hard against the rounds.

Tuner answered my question very well, the dents in the middle are coming from right here:
 

Attachments

  • 1915 C58.jpg
    1915 C58.jpg
    9.1 KB · Views: 72
re:

Quotes:

>Nope. That dimple on the follower won't mark the brass and removing it will lead to problems.<

True. That dimple is important.
************************

But, as usual, everyone focuses on the extractor in these cases and forgets the other member of the dance act, the ejector.

Sorry...I addressed that in one of the early posts when I wrote:

>L-I-G-H-T-L-Y breaking the top corner may also help. Do one at a time and note the change. If that doesn't effect a 2 O'Clock ejection, the only other place to go is the nose of the ejector...and the short, GI-type ejectors don't lend themselves to a whole lotta tweakin'.<
 
Correct Understanding

Matt...Yep. It's either where you indicated, or just below where the round top forms into the straight side...and it's most likely the lower corner. If it were the upper one, formed by the port itself, the brass would roll out behind you and to the right at about 2 O'Clock.

Check the ejector for flanging or burrs along the point of impact with the case.
 
Thanks for the help, I'll pull the extractor and take a look at the areas you suggested. Maybe I'll be able to recover more of the shells next time I go shooting with it to get a better idea of the frequency of this event. I'll make sure the extractor does not have any burrs. Perhaps that will help ensure uniform ejection.
 
Here is a picture from the first time I noted it. It became considerably worse over time, I imagine a manifestation of the recoil spring weakening over time and thus allowing faster extraction. That aside, looks like you mailed it Tuner! I see exactly what you were describing in the brass. The extractor seems to be digging in very deep!

View attachment 292532

Doc2005
 
Burrs

Matt...Check the *ejector* for burrs.

Doc...Looks like the extractor claw is too deep and trapping the case between the backside of the claw and the ejector. Measure from the tip to the wall...slot...to see how that looks. .036 is about right.
 
Some pics and an attempt to explain what I am seeing

1911Tuner:

Okay, I measured the extractor. The tip of the extractor’s claw measured 0.108, and the wall of the extractor at the very base of the claw measured 0.075 (rear…farthest back from claw) 0.076 (middle…mid-way from claw), and 0.078 (front…at the base of claw). And so the claw depth ranges from 0.033, 0.032 and 0.030). The portion that holds the cartridge’s base is not flat. As you can see from the measurements. Does that mean it’s poorly machined, or too shallow? The face of the claw also appears to not be square.

I took 11 photos, as good of quality as I can take, of the extractor from various angles and all very close-up. It looks like there is a spur at the bottom of the extractor that might be digging into the brass. The extractor looks like it is not machined square at the angled portion designed to facilitate the cartridge sliding up and over the extractor’s bottom. Is that normal? Does the extractor look normal, or can’t you tell from pics? Any help you can give is appreciated.

Doc2005


View attachment 292535

View attachment 292536

View attachment 292537

View attachment 292538

View attachment 292539

View attachment 292540

View attachment 292541

View attachment 292542

View attachment 292543

View attachment 292544

View attachment 292545
 
re:

Doc, the corners of the claw look like they have a good, smooth shape. The non-symmetrical bevel is the second one I've seen like that. It seems to help with rim pickup, but doesn't hold the rim as securely during the field tension test...hold a round without dropping it. Doesn't seem to really hurt anything, but ejection tends to be a little weak.

The deep marks in your rims still suggest that the case is getting trapped between the backside of the claw and the ejector nose. Since the depth is good...actually a bit shallow...it almost has to be a slight mislocation of the ejector...too far inward. Try filing a shallow angle on the inside of the ejector to move the impact with the case further toward the rim's edge.

Take it easy. Just a light cut and try it to see what the effect is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top