Question about loading and fillers and crisco

[MCgunner]

Okay, I've always lubed with crisco to prevent chain fires. Some opinions I've read here and make sense is that chain fires don't occur at the front of the cylinder, but through a nipple where the cap might be loose.

Anyway, just thinkin' about it yesterday, I got to wondering how on earth a chain fire could happen with no crisco when the ball has 7 grain equivalents of corn meal filler directly behind it? Seems to me that the corn meal filler would protect it.

Opinions? I don't want to mess with under wads and crisco is messy. I defeat this problem with pre-lubed conicals in other guns, but the Navy is a ball only gun unless you load with a press, which I do have on the way. But, I'd like to stick with ball in this gun.

 

[A. Walker]

chain fires don't occur at the front of the cylinder

Couldn't be more wrong here than if you had said "the sun comes up in the pudding"... Of course, CF does and will occur from both ends; you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. While grease is best, filler certainly helps (add a wad over the filler) - folding everything up in a cartridge helps even more. The only time I had a chainfire was loading ball over powder without filler or grease... almost instant flame-over. Haven't had it occur with my cartridges. Mykeal or someone here has a shot of a revolver being fired in the dark; 80-90% of the flame is in front of the cylinder.

 

[MCgunner]

Okay, mark THAT one up as false advice. Figures that the flash at the front would be the biggest problem. I've just seen that opinion posted here. I'm glad you tested it for me. I'm not anxious for a chain fire.

I've always greased the balls with crisco, just thinkin' it might not be necessary with filler. But, I guess you can't have too many safety systems. Danged balls are down in the cylinder a ways way I'm loading it. I got to thinkin' today that I don't need to pack so much crisco in there, can just put a dab in and run it down to the ball with the rammer and it should squish out on the ball. I'm going to try that, anyway, will be less messy. Too, when I get my cylinder press in, loading it out of the gun will be a LOT easier.

 

[Pulp]

I'd venture a guess and say there's a whole lot of flame everywhere:



I've had two experiences of chainfire from the front, (Colt and Remington)due to undersize balls and several experiences of chainfire from the back, (Remington) which I finally found that one of the nipples had part of the shoulder broken off and you could see the threads on that side when the nipple was fully seated.

I've chalked both of those to the learning curve. I now firmly believe in the old lead ring shaving and good nipples with proper caps. Wonder Wads are also supposed to be a good safety measure, although I prefer Bore Butter over the bullet.

 

[denster]

It really doesn't matter how much Crisco you put in front of the ball, almost all of it will be gone after the first shot and making a mess or your gun anyway. That has to be the singularly most useless idea, my opinion, anyone has come up with. If you feel the need to have some lubrication to keep the fouling soft the use lube cookies or a lubed felt wad over the powder.
The use of a proper size ball and proper size caps will prevent chain fires. End of story. That is the experience of 40 years of shooting percussion revolvers without the first chain fire.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Tight fitting caps and balls will prevent chainfires. The only chainfire I've ever had was due to a missing cap on a charged chamber. My normal loading/shooting sequence is powder, lubed wad, ball, cap & fire; repeat. IMNSHO, fillers are an unnecessary added expense that has questionable benefit in CAS, and anything over the ball is an unnecessary mess.

YMMV

FM

 

[Ratdog68]

Tight fitting caps and balls will prevent chainfires. The only chainfire I've ever had was due to a missing cap on a charged chamber. My normal loading/shooting sequence is powder, lubed wad, ball, cap & fire; repeat. IMNSHO, fillers are an unnecessary added expense that has questionable benefit in CAS, and anything over the ball is an unnecessary mess.

YMMV

FM

Question for you... would not having the ball as close to the forcing cone as possible be beneficial to the accuracy of the shot? Hence, the justification of filler?

 

[denster]

Using filler may have some advantages for pure group size but at CAS ranges any difference would be un-noticeable and just one more thing to fool with.

 

[MCgunner]

Without the filler, there is going to be air space with the powder. 777, as I understand it, needs to be seated such that there's very little compression, but the ball is tight to the powder, thus why I'm using the filler.

What I was using for balls were .457" Speer I'd bought years ago for my ROA. So, they are tight enough. They shaved a good ring. I have shot my own cast conicals in the ROA for years with no problems. Lots of lead on the wall of the cylinder and they're lubed with beeswax. I think when I order a ball mold, maybe I'll get a .457" one. It's a little tougher tp press the ball, though, but maybe it'd benefit where chain fire is concerned. Seems like more lead would be against the cylinder bore with the .457.

Or, maybe I'm paranoid. The chain fire thing has never sounded like fun, though.

 

[mykeal]

Tight fitting caps and balls will prevent chainfires.

The use of a proper size ball and proper size caps will prevent chain fires. Enc of story.

Yes!

Inert filler material helps, because it makes the gas travel further and thus cool a bit more, and grease helps by absorbing heat also, but real prevention is proper sized caps and balls.

There is anecdotal evidence that using filler to move the ball closer to the chamber mouth improves accuracy. However, you have to be a darned good shooter to be able to see the difference. I'm not.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Question for you... would not having the ball as close to the forcing cone as possible be beneficial to the accuracy of the shot? Hence, the justification of filler?

Using filler may have some advantages for pure group size but at CAS ranges any difference would be un-noticeable and just one more thing to fool with.

There is anecdotal evidence that using filler to move the ball closer to the chamber mouth improves accuracy. However, you have to be a darned good shooter to be able to see the difference. I'm not.

+1 to denster's and mykeal's responses. My pooh-poohing of fillers was only in reference to CAS matches. I don't do bullseye or precision shooting , so cannot speak to filler's efficacy or lack thereof.

FM

 

[Hellgate]

I noticed the times that I used a filler (Cream of wheat) the barrel stayed pretty scrubbed clean.

 

[ClemBert]

It really doesn't matter how much Crisco you put in front of the ball, almost all of it will be gone after the first shot and making a mess or your gun anyway. That has to be the singularly most useless idea, my opinion, anyone has come up with. If you feel the need to have some lubrication to keep the fouling soft the use lube cookies or a lubed felt wad over the powder.

Some people like cloudy days and some sunny...others like Fords while some Chevys. Personally, I fall into the camp that thinks that lube over the ball is much less desirable way to solve a problem due to the mess. I'll go along with denster on this one. The lubed wad over powder seems like the cleanest/best way to handle fouling/sealing except when one wants to maximize the powder charge by using all available chamber area. However, most folks aren't trying to shoot max charges and in fact many add filler between the powder and ball.

I believe that most chain fires occur from the rear and not the front. Why? Because I think most people who experience chain fires more than likely concern themselves more with sealing the front while not paying as much attention to the potential of chain fire from the rear. I think having properly fitting caps isn't on the radar screen for some. However, just because I think that most chain fires start from the rear doesn't mean I believe that engineering/physics dictates that the rear is most danger prone. I believe the front of the cylinder can just as likely produce a chain fire if the front is not sealed properly. I'm just saying that some folks think less about sealing the rear than they do the front and thus it happens more often from the rear.

 

[robhof]

+1 on what Clembert said and as far as flame goes; I've killed mosquitos off my forearms shooting from a bench in the evening on muggy summer days. While aiming, I noticed my arms fill with the blood suckers and after firing a round they were writhing in pain on the bench, I soon started wainting til my arms were full to shoot, not much accuracy, but many dead mosquitoes.

 

[Foto Joe]

Fillers & Crisco, The Saga Continues

As stated above, the first time you put one down the barrel the majority of your Crisco on the non-fired chambers gets blown all over your shoes, face, hat and hands. I know this 'cause I'm a Crisco user.

Is it messy?
You bet!!

Does it prevent chain fires?
Probably minimally at best.

Does it make the inside of the barrel easier to clean?
Definitely, even though everything else gets coated too.

I recently gave up on the wads as just an extra step. I do however use cornmeal religiously as a filler. Typically on my Conf. Navy I'll load 20gr 3f and 20gr cornmeal to bring the ball up closer to the forcing cone. Since I don't shoot that one more than 25 yards I can't speak to the accuracy subject on that one, however....

On my WALKER or Dragoon I use 50gr/40gr 3f respectively with 15gr of cornmeal over each and can consistantly hit a 12x12 target at 100 yards if I haven't had too much coffee. Without the filler my odds drop to about 30%. Scientific research? Not really but it seems to work for me.

The bottom line is: You don't hurt anything using either Crisco or Cornmeal but don't count on either one to be effective in preventing a chainfire. Correct caps for the correct nipples and the right RB is your best insurance.

If you use Crisco, use a popsicle stick to apply it and buy a box of baby wipes. And remember not to wear your expensive Sunday go to meetin' hat if yer shootin' up wind!!

 

[MCgunner]

If you use Crisco, use a popsicle stick to apply it

Damn,, why didn't I think of that? Gotta go to walmart. Think I'll buy fudgesickes, though. I prefer ice cream.

+1 on what Clembert said and as far as flame goes; I've killed mosquitos off my forearms shooting from a bench in the evening on muggy summer days. While aiming, I noticed my arms fill with the blood suckers and after firing a round they were writhing in pain on the bench, I soon started wainting til my arms were full to shoot, not much accuracy, but many dead mosquitoes.

Hmm, probably a little too noisy for a summer night hog hunt. Does it work better than a thermacell?

 

[[email protected]]

I use a old cake decorator to use my crisco. I use the butter flavor also.
I only load & lube one chamber in Bullyseye shootin. No splatter.

 

[Curator]

A few years ago I was chronographing some black powder rifle loads for an article I was writing for "Muzzle Blasts". Just for fun I shot my 1858 Remington Army .44 with both 37 grains of Goex FFFg and my target load of 20 grains of FFFg and 17 grains (using my powder measure) of cream of wheat filler using .454 home cast balls. I was surprised to find that I got almost the same velocity with both loads. The average of 10 shots was 880 fps with the 37 grain charge and 865 with the 20/17 FFFg/cream of wheat load. Actually the 37 grain loads varried from a high of 940 fps to a low of 750fps. The 20/17 fillered load varried at most 15 fps. That made a believer out of me, but I was already sold on the cleaner burning and better accuracy of the fillered load anyway. Don't try this without first protecting the screens and front of your chronograph, or ask me how I learned this either.

 

[Ratdog68]

LOL Love it !!!

... Don't try this without first protecting the screens and front of your chronograph, or ask me how I learned this either.

Inkstritink little tidbit there though. "Hot" isn't always "best". I'm gonna have to try the filler routine.

 

[mykeal]

I soon started wainting til my arms were full to shoot, not much accuracy, but many dead mosquitoes.

You're beginning to worry me....

 

[MCgunner]

Don't try this without first protecting the screens and front of your chronograph, or ask me how I learned this either.

Mmm, been wondering about that very thing. I haven't chronographed the 51, yet. Maybe I'll use my son-in-law's chrony.

I know what I'll do to hopefully get a relatively accurate velocity, though. When I get my bullet press in, I'll be able to load the ball WAY down to the powder, no filler. I'm sure accuracy will suffer, but all I want is some velocities without hurting the chronograph.

 

[Oyeboten]

Interesting mention there about the relation of FPS with and without Fillers.


I gotta try that...


Wonder what a small 'Kraft' Marshmallow would do, stuffed between Powder and Ball, or, as as a Chain Fire preventer, on top of the Ball?

Could be messy...


Lol...


But I will try the Cream of Wheat or Corn Meal.

 

[MCgunner]

Wonder what a small 'Kraft' Marshmallow would do, stuffed between Powder and Ball, or, as as a Chain Fire preventer, on top of the Ball?

Do you remember the end of the movie "ghost busters"?

 

[Ratdog68]

Interesting mention there about the relation of FPS with and without Fillers.


I gotta try that...


Wonder what a small 'Kraft' Marshmallow would do, stuffed between Powder and Ball, or, as as a Chain Fire preventer, on top of the Ball?

Could be messy...


Lol...


But I will try the Cream of Wheat or Corn Meal.

LOL How do you calculate where the mushmellow will land... so you can have the graham cracker and chocolate laid out to catch it?

 

[[email protected]]

I have been using "Creme-Of-Wheat" in revolvers since 1965. For accuracy
reasons.