Question about resizing cases for .45-70 loads.

[MCMXI]

I'm slowly working my way through 200 new Starline brass cases in my efforts to feed a couple of Marlin 1895 rifles. I'm currently using Remington's 405gr JSP bullet and I have a question or two. The Starline brass comes full-length sized so the case mouth just needs to be expanded a little in order to get the bullet started. The Remington bullet has a flat base so it needs all the help it can get. The OD of the case mouth (new brass) is 0.475", the case wall thickness is 0.012" so the case mouth ID is 0.451". The OD of the bullet is 0.458" resulting in 0.007" of case neck tension ... maybe excessive but reasonable.

So now on to the problem. I'm using Redding full-length, expander and competition seater dies along with a Lee roll crimp die. The Redding full-length die is adjusted to approximately 0.070" off the shell holder. After resizing a fired case, the OD of the case mouth is 0.468" (0.444" ID). This seems like a significant and unnecessary reduction particularly since the ID of the expander "shaft" that enters the case mouth BEFORE belling the case mouth is 0.457". In other words, the full-length die reduces the ID to 0.444" only to have a 0.457" rod rammed into it. After expanding the case mouth a little, the OD of the case mouth is 0.475", back to the new specs. I feel that this unnecessary overworking of the brass will reduce case life. How do I prevent the FL die from reducing the case mouth an unnecessary amount? It seems that my only option is to ream the inside of the die i.e. open it up by 0.007". Moving the FL die further away from the shell holder wouldn't help unless I moved it so far back that it didn't touch the case mouth, but then it wouldn't resize the case body.

Thanks for any help.

 

[1858rem]

maybe give them a call? how about loading 5 individual cases over and over and see if the primer pocket or case mouth wears out first

 

[1858rem]

and keep up with the group sizes too, as far as 1st, 2nd, 3rd....etc loadings

 

[nicholst55]

I'd give Redding a call and see if they can open the neck of your die up a bit, or if they can recommend someone to do that for you.

You may also want to consider annealing the case mouth; some BPCR shooters advocate annealing after each firing. That may be a bit excessive, but it's something to consider.

 

[jmorris]

FWIW I load the 405 grain Remington SP in 45-70 and 458 socom without "belling". I have found it's not needed with jacketed but a must with cast.

 

[rcmodel]

The 45-70 case has a .024" taper from back to front.
With that much taper, the further down you set the die, the smaller the mouth will be.

Back off the sizing die some and see if that helps.

As long as the base is getting sized enough to chamber you would be good.

rc

 

[Asherdan]

RC just described exactly what I've done, with good results. I took my first set of 100 R-P brass and ran 3 reloads at hunting levels through them and then 'retired' them to plinker loads. Just did my 12th turn through them, so it seems to work out OK. Feed, function and accuracy have been fine.

I seat the particular bullet I'm using and measure the outside case mouth diameter and reduce that by ~.004 for my sizing target. Back out and adjust the die in until you reach your target diameter.

Started this when .459 and .460 lead bullets were giving me bulged case issues.

I'm using inexpensive Lee dies, though. I'm not familiar with the Redding set 1858 is using so my method may not apply.

 

[MCMXI]

51858rem and nicholst5, thanks for the good suggestions.

FWIW I load the 405 grain Remington SP in 45-70 and 458 socom without "belling". I have found it's not needed with jacketed but a must with cast.

It's absolutely needed with the Starline cases. With a 0.451" case mouth ID and a 0.458" bullet OD, without belling it's virtually impossible (for me) to get the bullet started straight. Now if the Remington bullet had a boat tail ... well, then it'd be easy.

The 45-70 case has a .024" taper from back to front.
With that much taper, the further down you set the die, the smaller the mouth will be.

This was my first thought but oddly enough the die doesn't just have a straight taper. At the top of the die (inside) it's necked down and that region of the die (based on my measurements of resized cases) is straight. In other words, backing the die out will reduce the length of the region near the case mouth that's squeezed down but not the diameter. I'm not sure that I've made that point very well but hopefully you understand what I mean. Basically, I'd have to the back the die out more than 1/2" to ensure that the case mouth doesn't enter the necked-down region but then the case body may not be reduced enough. However, I will try this and make some measurements of the case mouth and see if the cases will feed properly.

After a lot of head scratching yesterday, I was beginning to wonder if this .45-70 die is designed for double duty ... something akin to the .45 Colt/.454 Casull application ... and I'm just using the die incorrectly.

I seat the particular bullet I'm using and measure the outside case mouth diameter and reduce that by ~.004 for my sizing target. Back out and adjust the die in until you reach your target diameter.

The case mouth OD with a seated bullet is 0.478" which puts the "factory" dimensions of 0.475" right where they should be. I suppose my original question could have been, how do I resize the cases so that they have the same dimensions as the factory Starline cases? They obviously haven't reduced the case mouth excessively ... they have a straight taper whereas the Redding die results in a necked-down region.

Once again I'm grateful for the help. Sometimes it's just good to bounce ideas around.

 

[MCMXI]

OK ... so I backed the FL die all the way out and then turned it down in 1/4 turn increments until the case mouth just started to contact the necked-down region inside the die. Here's a quick drawing showing the case mouth measurements at various locations after minimal sizing. I should add that this method doesn't fully resize the case body. The new brass tapers from 0.500" OD down to the the case mouth dimension. Fired brass has a "bulged" region that starts about 1/4" from the rim and is 0.505" in diamter. With the FL die just off the shell holder, a fired and sized case has a bulged region of 0.502". With minimal FL sizing, the bulged region remains at 0.505". Whether or not this would result in feeding issues is yet to be determined.

You can see the problem here. In only 1/4" (not even close to the 0.550" of seated bullet shank) the case mouth tapers from 0.468" to 0.480". 0.468" is an unnecessary amount of case mouth reduction and 0.480" isn't enough. If I want to get neck tension along the entire length of the 0.550" bullet shank, I'll end up back where I started with a long necked-down region with an OD of 0.468". This will lead to a reduction in case life. I don't see any option other than to ream the die out from whatever it currently is at that produces a 0.468" mouth 1/2" long to whatever is required to produce a 0.475" mouth over the final 1/2" of the case. In other words, I need to remove 0.007" from the necked region of the die.

Why Redding makes the die this way is beyond me. Their expander die has a 0.457" shank so why reduce the case mouth so much only to open it up again? It's just results in pointless cold working of the brass. Maybe they're in cahoots with .45-70 case manufacturers ... cold working = shorter case life = increased sales of cases! Is the Starline brass thick walled compared to Remington or some other brand of brass?

Maybe I need to order Redding's neck sizing die in .45-70, completely remove the necked-region in the FL die and make sizing a two-step process.

 

[rcmodel]

Well see, thats why I still have my old Herters 45-70 die set!

None of the new fangled high dollar Redding stuff for me.

Seems to me the only thing to do is send it back to Redding and let them make the hole bigger!

rc

 

[fireman 9731]

yep... I have to say that my RCBS 45-70 dies don't do anything like that...

 

[MCMXI]

Well see, thats why I still have my old Herters 45-70 die set! None of the new fangled high dollar Redding stuff for me.

You didn't happen to buy two sets did you ... ? Actually, these Redding .45-70 dies are some of the cheaper ones. All of my other rifle dies are the Competition series or "new fangled high dollar Redding stuff" ... those work great.

Seems to me the only thing to do is send it back to Redding and let them make the hole bigger!

Couldn't I just wrap some emery cloth around a dowel and "polish" out 0.007"?

 

[MCMXI]

yep... I have to say that my RCBS 45-70 dies don't do anything like that...

Can you elaborate ... with dimensions if possible?

Thanks.

 

[fireman 9731]

Sure thing-

Winchester brass, fired a couple of times, with standard RCBS full length sizing dies.

before sizing-
outside diameter: .482
inside diameter: .455

Full length sized-
outside Diameter: .472
inside diameter: .450

Case mouth flared-
outside diameter: .476
inside diameter: .457(or a little more if I'm using cast bullets)

I would call Redding with the numbers that you are getting, and see what they have to say. It almost seems to me that you are getting a roll crimp in your sizing process. Maybe your die is just out of spec. Are you using plenty of lube? Does your Starline brass need to be trimmed maybe?

 

[MCMXI]

Are you using plenty of lube? Does your Starline brass need to be trimmed maybe?

Yes to the first question and no to the second one. The case length after one firing is 2.094", under the 2.095" to 2.105" spec. You mention that the case mouth of a sized case is 0.472" so what's the dimension approximately 1/2" from the case mouth? If your resized cases have a straight taper it should be something like 0.478".

rcmodel mentioned the 0.024" taper from the base of the case body to the case mouth so the OD of the case 1/2" down from the mouth would be 0.482" (interpolating between 0.500" at the base and 0.476" at the mouth). So it's clear that the taper on my die is way off (too severe) based on the drawing above. My cases are at 0.480" only 1/4" from the case mouth with 0.468" at the mouth.

Well, thanks to all for your help. I now have a better understanding of what the issue is. I'm still working my way through 200 cases so I have time to figure this out before I start to reload once-fired cases.

I need to make the point that my concern with the Redding FL die is unnecessary working of the brass. These dies produce ammunition that works just fine, but I'm trying to extend the life of the cases. I just had a thought, maybe I could resize the case mouth using my .45 ACP taper crimp die ... hmmm.

 

[fireman 9731]

My diameter 1/2 inch below the case mouth was .473

 

[MCMXI]

fireman 9731,
OK ... sounds like you have the perfect set up with virtually parallel case walls with only 0.001" taper from the case mouth to 1/2" below the case mouth ... and that's after FL sizing only. Clearly my set up is WAY off.

Thanks.

 

[flashhole]

This may be of some use but it sounds like you have an aggressive sizing die.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

 

[MCMXI]

flashhole, thanks for the link ... the inside dimension of his cases at the mouth after FL sizing is 0.455" ... a lot larger than mine at 0.444"!! His cases don't appear to be necked down like mine either. I just sent Redding an email to ask them what the problem is.

Thanks.

 

[suemarkp]

The .457 expander ball sounds a bit large too. I'd think .354 - .455 would be better, and you could grind it down a touch. I'd also suggest a Lyman M die or a universal expanding die (I hate the expander ball approach). This will flare the mouth enough for cast bullets (or jacketed if you do it less) without over expanding the neck.

But it sounds like your resizing die has some issues too.

 

[MCMXI]

suemarkp, thanks for your comments.

I received a reply from Redding's technical department this morning ... they're FAST since I only sent the email late yesterday.

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. All of our full length sizing dies for straight‑wall cases, size the case mouth more than the rest of the case. This ensures that there is enough neck tension to hold the bullet securely, without excessively sizing the rest of the case. It also helps keep the "snake‑head" effect from occurring, where you can see the bullet base through the case. Your die is functioning as it was designed to. Adjust it to touch the shellholder.

Regards,

Patrick T. Ryan
Redding Reloading Equipment
1089 Starr Road
Cortland, NY 13045

607-753-3331
FAX 607-756-8445


So it seems that everything is working the way Redding intended although I don't agree with their method since the die reduces the neck too much (in my opinion). Why not set up the die to reduce the neck to just slightly under the expander "shaft" dimension? I can see how brass from a different manufacturer could have different wall thicknesses but I haven't read anything about Starline case walls being excessively thick. My choices now are (1) to use the Redding die as is, (2) try to ream it out by 0.007' or (3) buy another sizing die from RCBS, Hornady, Lee etc. If I do use the Redding die as is, it seems that I need to lower the die to touch the shell holder.

Thanks.

 

[flashhole]

flashhole, thanks for the link ... the inside dimension of his cases at the mouth after FL sizing is 0.455" ... a lot larger than mine at 0.444"!! His cases don't appear to be necked down like mine either. I just sent Redding an email to ask them what the problem is.

I authored that post. I went down and measured some case I have, R-P and WW, they both measured .010" thick webs. If the Starline brass is half again as thick at .014-.015" that may be causing you some problems.

I would try another brand of brass before I bought another FL sizing die. All my Redding equipment works flawlessly, not that I'm defending Redding, I just don't have any problems with any of their equipment. My 45-70 die set is Hornady as was shown in the link. The recommendation to pick up a Lyman M-die is a good one. I will get one myself eventually.

 

[MCMXI]

All my Redding equipment works flawlessly, not that I'm defending Redding, I just don't have any problems with any of their equipment.

I agree 100% ... I have many, many excellent Redding dies and they're ALWAYS my first choice ... and will continue to be.

Well done on that reloading post ... I didn't even notice that you authored it .

As for buying new brass ... I have 200 cases of Starline so it'd be cheaper to buy another die. I think I'm going to take the die to our machine shop and see if they can remove 0.005" from the inside (where the die contacts the top 1/2" of the case).

Thanks.

 

[flashhole]

200 cases will probably last you the life of the gun. In 2003 I bought some Hornady 45-70 bullets from Midway that were surplus stock. I got 1500 350 grain Hornady RN bullets delivered to the door for $76. I will most likely wear out some brass by the time I go through all of them.

 

[MCMXI]

I bought a box of 1000 Remington 405gr JSP bullets last year from Midway ("free" shipping) to stuff into the Starline cases. That's five reloads per case so I want the cases to last that long at least. I don't know how long it'll take me to work my way through 1000 bullets but I would think a couple of years at the least.