Question about Select Fire Weapons

[tacweapon]

I was wondering about the legality of a citizen that has their Class 3 Weapons Permit being able to convert a Rifle that was orginaly made as a Semi-Automatic Rifle into a Select Fire Weapon ? What does the Laws say about this. I know that there is a ban on automatic weapons that they had to have been manufactered before a specific year 1969 I think but what about converted rifles are they Legal ? I have ordered a Robinson Arms XCR Carbine and I am wondering what the legal issues would be about converting it to Select Fire once I get my Class 3 Weapons Permit. Thank You for your input

 

[DMF]

In general it is illegal to manufacture a machinegun after April 1986, which includes converting a semi-auto gun to a machinegun. So what you're planning is not legal.

However, as I've advised many times before, if this is more than a hypothetical question do not take the advice from random posts on an internet forum, instead consult with an attorney that has experience with federal, state, and local firearms laws.

 

[kwelz]

Hmmm Low number of post. Obvious baiting questions. *smiff* *sniff*

something smells a bit funny here. I could be wrong and am sorry if that is the case. But something is amiss here.

 

[Quiet]

FYI.
No such thing as a Class 3 weapons permit.


You need to get a tax stamp from the BATFE, in order to legally own a Title 2 firearm (MG/SBR/SBS/AOW). Title 2 firearms are legally sold by Type 01-FFL Class 3 SOT dealers.

 

[ctdonath]

Law aka 922(o) forbids civilian possession of any "machinegun" made after 1986. Doesn't matter how you get to "machinegun" (very broadly interpreted), if it happened after 1986 you can/will get in very deep and very hot water.

You cannot get a "Class III weapons permit". It doesn't exist.
You _could_ get a "Title II SOP" license ... but if you're asking the question the way you are, you have a loooooot of homework to do.

And yes, Azizza has what is considered a correct reaction to the question. The issue is so legally tense that anyone asking that question is rightly viewed with suspicion.

 

[Kentak]

Just a quick perusal of the BATF website leads to the conclusion that the answer is no--unless you can prove you are making it for a federal or state agency. Can you?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Can't do it unless you are prepared to become a FFL with SOT endorsement, and from what I've heard they have cracked down pretty hard to make sure you are actually in business and not doing it just to save money on your hobby.
AFAIK they basically closed the registry in May of 1986 to civilians for machine guns, no more can be entered (and thus registered as a transferrable MG). Anything made after that date is a post-may dealer sample (only other SOTs can own, and must be sold or destroyed if you give up your SOT status). That's why post-may guns are cheap.
So, there's no class 3 license (I think at one time there was a class 3 FFL or something but they don't call it that anymore) needed to own NFA/Title II guns but to deal in them (or make them, as you are suggesting) you need to be a SOT (special occupational taxpayer) as well as have a FFL. And unfortunately the poison pill they slipped into the 1986 gun control act shut down the registry for new machine guns for civilians.
Check out this site: http://www.cruffler.com/legal-May-00.html

 

[tacweapon]

I am just trying to do some research on the subject and I have no plans to do it was just wondering the legal issues involved. In regard to the Class 3 Weapons Permit I had been told that you had to have a Class 3 Weapons Permit to own SBR's, Suppressors, Select Fire Weapons, and any type of weapon that propels an explosive device, and that to get this permit you had to be 21 years of age submit an application to the ATF pay a few and get approval from the local Cheif of Police, have I been told a load of bs or is it just called something else ? I have seen Civilians with Select Fire Weapons that have been manufactered within the last 5 years, are these weapons illegal ? I would like to own at some point in the future an Assault Rifle that is Select Fire but I want to abide the law and I am just doing some research before I talk to a lawyer so I know a little more about the law before hand. Is there anyway for a civilian to legally own a Select Fire Assault Rifle ? If there is what is the steps involved in legaly purchasing and using one ? I would really like to a Robinson Arms XCR Carbine in a SBR Platform that is a Select Fire Weapon. Thank you for your input it is very much appreciated.

 

[ExSoldier]

A lot of my friends own them, legally. They are all 1986 manufacture dates or prior. However I have been told that there is a substantial number of H&K MP5's that were semi but have been converted using pre-1986 sears and that the sear is the ATF controlled part and that too is legal; so long as you have the letter of recommendation from a Chief of Police and undergo the BATF background check AND pay the $200 TAX. Plus the cost of the weapon, of course. Current prices (finite market) are hovering in the range of 35K average. WHY anybody would want to own one beyond the sheer fun of blowing thru several hundred dollars of ammo (or more) at a time is beyond me, but that isn't important at all. The 2nd Amendment protects it nonetheless. OTOH these friends of mine DO have the bucks to blow. Several of them also have suppressors for the weapons.

One has a beautiful semi auto AR15 with the suppressor only. It's quiet enough to shoot without muffs of any sort but definitely louder than you'd think. Mostly because of the supersonic ammo required to operate the weapon. As I understand it, the AR15 system does not function well if the ammo is sub-sonic. However, I'd love to try an AR15 chambered for .300 whisper and have THAT suppressed and see what the "noise report" is like.

 

[ctdonath]

I am just trying to do some research on the subject and I have no plans to do it was just wondering the legal issues involved.

Go search for "NFA FAQ" by Bardwell for the best, if slightly dated, coverage of the issue.

Class 3 Weapons Permit

No such thing.
To own any "NFA" items, you fill out a Form 4 (dealer will walk you thru it), or a Form 1 (if you're going to make it) and pay a $200 tax. That's a one-time thing, not a "permit". You must have BATFE approval BEFORE receiving/building the item.

I have seen Civilians with Select Fire Weapons that have been manufactered within the last 5 years, are these weapons illegal ?

Yes. Very.
The only "exception" is that the part that made it full-auto is considered the machinegun itself, and was registered as such before 1986.

I would like to own at some point in the future an Assault Rifle that is Select Fire

It will cost you over $15,000.
Find a seller, fill out a BATFE Form 4, get the local CLEO to sign it, attach passport-type photos, get fingerprints, attest to being a citizen, attach check for $200, mail to BATFE, wait a couple months for approval, get gun.

To "convert" something would require getting a registered DIAS or Lighting Link, a tiny part which legally is the machinegun, and which will cost you almost as much as a full machinegun - IF you can find a legal seller.

Go hang out at subguns.com and silencertalk.com for a while for more nuances.

Upshot: it's gonna cost you. A lot.

 

[TexasRifleman]

A lot of my friends own them, legally. They are all 1986 manufacture dates or prior. However I have been told that there is a substantial number of H&K MP5's that were semi but have been converted using pre-1986 sears and that the sear is the ATF controlled part and that too is legal; so long as you have the letter of recommendation from a Chief of Police and undergo the BATF background check AND pay the $200 TAX.

There is no "letter of recommendation". The transfer form has a place for your chief LEO to sign saying he "sees no reason you should not own this firearm" basically. He does not have to sign showing a need or recommend you. If he won't sign you can still buy the weapon as a corporation and proceed without the signature.

And yes it's very common to see brand new HKs or ARs "converted" but that's because as mentioned they are using a pre-86 sear which is the actual registered part.

The new rifle is just a "host" weapon when the sear is installed. Once that part is removed the host turns back into a Title 1 (plain old) firearm.

To "convert" something would require getting a registered DIAS or Lighting Link, a tiny part which legally is the machinegun, and which will cost you almost as much as a full machinegun - IF you can find a legal seller.

I have a Registered Lightning Link I bought back in the early 80's. Trust me, you don't want one. They are very very hard to get timed and working correctly and they require an SP1 style AR which is getting harder to find.

Go with an actual receiver if you decide to spend the money on it. The Drop In Sears may be better, I never played with those.

Paying $11,000 for a piece of metal that was selling for $45 (in the case of the lightning link) is a sickening thought.

 

[Bubbles]

tacweapon - this info was put together by one of the top firearm and Constitutional attorneys in the country.

National Firearms Act FAQ

 

[barnetmill]

I think that recent changes in the law now allow civilian groups like contractors in Iraq and nuclear power plants to legally obtain full auto weapons with the permission of the federal government. Can anyone elaborate on this?

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Arent contractor weapons given a special "immunity"? Doesnt the contractor have to register them with the government, but then the govt takes them away for destruction after contract is up? (just shooting in the breeze)

 

[Andras]

The weapons are purchased by the DoD or State and used by the contractors.

Only the nuclear security contractor (Wachenhut?) can buy new machineguns.

 

[oda226]

Call the NFA branch of ATF in West Virginiaand get a ruling straight from them. I am a Class 3 holder and they have been very helpful to me in the past regarding any ruling on regulations.

 

[Crunker1337]

IIRC, if you want to do this you have to become a Class II manufacturer.

 

[RP88]

legal issues also include jail time, loss of voting and gun rights, and a lot of lost money

 

[revjen45]

No, Herr Sturmmann. It is not legal. Now, go tell everybody at Obergrupprnamt Der BATF that no one at this board encourages illegal behavior.

 

[SWMAN]

You what to manufacture a rifle capable of full auto? Apply to ATFE for a manufacturer's license.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Might want to wait and see what kind of ruling we get from the SCOTUS. Just maybe, it'll lead to the ban being overturned in the future...so save your $15,000 for now...

 

[Titan6]

I was wondering about the legality of a citizen that has their Class 3 Weapons Permit being able to convert a Rifle that was orginaly made as a Semi-Automatic Rifle into a Select Fire Weapon ?

Asked and answered. It is not legal.

I know that there is a ban on automatic weapons that they had to have been manufactered before a specific year 1969 I think but what about converted rifles are they Legal ?

You mean registered before 1986.

I have ordered a Robinson Arms XCR Carbine and I am wondering what the legal issues would be about converting it to Select Fire once I get my Class 3 Weapons Permit.

Prison food sucks.

In regard to the Class 3 Weapons Permit I had been told that you had to have a Class 3 Weapons Permit to own SBR's, Suppressors, Select Fire Weapons, and any type of weapon that propels an explosive device, and that to get this permit you had to be 21 years of age submit an application to the ATF pay a few and get approval from the local Cheif of Police, have I been told a load of bs or is it just called something else ?

These are all seperate questions and vary a lot based upon the state you live in. Tell us where you live and we can refer you to the proper place.

I have seen Civilians with Select Fire Weapons that have been manufactered within the last 5 years, are these weapons illegal ?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends a lot on whether on their status. Also depends upon the gun. It may be "new manufacture" from pre registered parts.

I would like to own at some point in the future an Assault Rifle that is Select Fire but I want to abide the law and I am just doing some research before I talk to a lawyer so I know a little more about the law before hand. Is there anyway for a civilian to legally own a Select Fire Assault Rifle ?

Depends upon where you live and how much money you have. If you live in a low crime state the answer is probably yes. Without knowing where you live your questions are very difficult to answer.

 

[tacweapon]

I live in Virginia. Thanks everyone for your help. What is the the average price for an select fire assault rifle ? What is the average price for a sear to convert an exsiting weapon to select fire ? Is it better to purchase a weapon that is made as a select fire weapon or is it better to buy a sear and then convert a semi-automatic weapon in to select fire ? I read in a previous post about Law Enforcement Agencies not having to pay the tax does that also apply to individual Law Enforcement Officers ? Other than a sear what other pre registered parts would be needed to convert a weapon to select fire ? Is there a age requirement to own a select fire weapon ? Thanks for your input

 

[Bubbles]

To check on prices, go to the NFA Firearms link at http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/

Next it depends on where in VA you live. Some Sheriffs and Chiefs of Police will sign off on a Form 4, some will not. If they don't then you need to either form a trust or LLC that will "own" the gun.

In general, you are better off with a registered receiver than with a registered sear.

LE and government agencies do not pay the excise tax. Employees of those agencies may posess NFA firearms issued to them in the course of their duties. These firearms MUST be returned to the department when the employee leaves.

Age to own a full-auto rifle is the same as to own any other rifle.

As far as other required parts, this is not an appropriate forum to discuss. No one here will tell you how to convert a semi-auto to a full-auto. If you want to know, go take an armorer's course from Colt, HK, etc.

 

[wdlsguy]

Age to own a full-auto rifle is the same as to own any other rifle.

As far as the feds are concerned, the age rules mirror those for handguns: 18 if buying from a non-licensed resident of his or her own State, 21 otherwise.