Question about stockd pistols

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Hillbilly600

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OK wanted to ask anyone who has one I know they are s.b.r so you have to do all the paperwork to make one but when you have the paperwork my question is do you have to keep it as a s.b.r or can you take the stock off and use it as a pistol because I have been thinking if you could it could be a gun that does two jobs without the stock it could be a c.c.w then when you come home you could put the stock back on and have a home defense gun or would that be against the laws some how so what say you all
Also if I did this it would be my first n.f.a gun and the one part I can't work out is do you have to keep it locked up were no body can get it I ask because my wife is not much of a gun person so I don't know if she would go through the whole hop's s so would it have to be were there would be no way she could get to it
 
It is an SBR so long as it is in an SBR configuration. There are no restrictions on going back and forth between configurations in Federal Law.

State laws may differ.

As to the question of when a collection of parts is an SBR the ATF determined in ruling 2011–4 standard "A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when assembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they . . . serve no useful purpose other than to make . . ."

If you wanted to take the gun across state lines without a form 5320.20 or if your state does not allow you to have an SBR in your car, you can most likely leave the stock at home. I can't be more exact--I've only researched the laws of my own state and states I travel to.

Mike
 
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For your second question about whether your wife could be considered in possession if you are not present, I can just say that in theory yes, but in practice no one has ever found a case where the the non-licensed party was not a prohibited person and the police did not come to the home for another reason (such as drugs).

In theory it would have to be kept in a locked container for which she does not have the key/combination.

Mike
 
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I should have been more clear on the second question I meet if I was home with her but just did not have it in my hand like I said if it was set up for home defense say in the bedroom and we were asleep but she got up would she be seen as in possession of it or is there a way were it could be locked up but I could get to it fast if I needed it
 
While it can go back and forth between having a stock and not, that doesn't mean it is a title II weapon without the stock. ATF ruling 2011-4 specifically excludes weapons made into an SBR, so it doesn't apply. The rationale used in the ruling might.

Also, check your state laws. In Michigan, SBRs under 26" can be carried as pistols with a CPL
 
And, to muddy the water, certain handguns, like the Canadian made High Powers which have a milled slot for a stock are not SBRs, as they were never made into a rifle to be "cut down".

And, in further grey area, there is the carbine stock add-on for the glock line. But, those have to be built up that way, if memory serves.
 
CapnMac And, to muddy the water, certain handguns, like the Canadian made High Powers which have a milled slot for a stock are not SBRs, as they were never made into a rifle to be "cut down".
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They most certainly are SBR's when the shoulder stock is attached.
But due to their status as a curio or relic they have been removed from the purview of the National Firearms Act. (meaning no tax stamp is required when attaching an ORIGINAL Inglis stock. Attach a replica and you better have a tax stamp.

An SBR does not have to have been a rifle or "cut down" to be an SBR.



And, in further grey area, there is the carbine stock add-on for the glock line. But, those have to be built up that way, if memory serves.
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Absolutely nothing gray about it.;)
If you attach a shoulder stock to a handgun with less than a 16" bbl and 26" OAL, you have created a Short Barreled Rifle.
 
That what I was thinking but I did not know that the Canada hipower if it has the stock it was meet for was not anyone know were you could find a stock like that
 
pjeski said:
While it can go back and forth between having a stock and not, that doesn't mean it is a title II weapon without the stock. ATF ruling 2011-4 specifically excludes weapons made into an SBR, so it doesn't apply. The rationale used in the ruling might.

Also, check your state laws. In Michigan, SBRs under 26" can be carried as pistols with a CPL
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I quoted 2011-4 with respect to the constructive possession only.

The ATF has said numerous times with respect to all types of NFA weapons, that they are no longer NFA when not in an NFA configuration.

Mike
 
Can you cite some of those times that don't refer to putting a long upper on an SBR? In other words, a specific example of ATF saying it's ok to make a pistol into an SBR and return it to title II status?
 
CapnMac, Not sure what you mean by "built up".

I have the .45/10mm version of this Fab Defense stock:
DSCN2666_zps4718d44a.gif

It has a spike like attachment moulded to match the void in the back of the Glock hand guard snugly and a detent that locks into the lanyard hole--very secure. It attached or removes in only a second.

I can also get my Glock into or out of it's Roni Chassis in about 10 seconds (much of that dealing with the two metal screws which the .40/9mm version does not have).

Mike
 
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I don't think there has been a statement on that exact question but it follows logically from the reasoning.

Admittedly, In 2011-4 none of the examples given cover that exact situation either.

You seem to be surmising the existence of a "one a SBR, always a rifle(of either kind)" rule. Can you cite this claim?

Mike
 
It's the same rule that applied before ATF ruling 2011-4, that it meets the definition of a weapon made from a rifle that is <26" OAL. That is how ATF interpreted that making a pistol Into a rifle and back was illegal before the ruling.

The rationale that ATF uses for 2011-4, that it is a pistol because it was originally designed to be fired wire one hand, should also apply to am SBR. It is troubling that they specifically chose to exclude pistols made into SBRs in the ruling.

As I have said before, I think it is OK to make a pistol into an SBR and return it to a pistol, but I don't believe there is any support, letter, or ruling that says so. And one attorney has told me that in his opinion you can't.

That is all.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
CapnMac, Not sure what you mean by "built up".

I have the .45/10mm version of this Fab Defense stock:
DSCN2666_zps4718d44a.gif

It has a spike like attachment moulded to match the void in the back of the Glock hand guard snugly and a detent that locks into the lanyard hole--very secure. It attached or removes in only a second.

I can also get my Glock into or out of it's Roni Chassis in about 10 seconds (much of that dealing with the two metal screws which the .40/9mm version does not have).

Mike
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Arizona Mike, since the OP seems to be new and asking questions, you might want to let him know that you had a $200 tax stamp with the BATFE approved paperwork for your Glock before you put that stock on it.

Saw people looking at similar items yesterday at a gun show who had no clue about what they were contemplating doing with their handguns, and it's legal ramifications.


Also curious AM, where did you do the engraving on your Glock??


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To the OP,

Here are a links to guns and stocks that does not require a tax stamp, so it would be OK for anyone the owner (you) lets use it to be in possession of it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/576321886
(Minimum cost to buy is $2,000.00.)

Here is another one you can get for a few hundred cheaper.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/575411208

This set up is $2,195.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/575225017

You might also look at Lugers and Broomhandles for non-NFA, pistol+stock combinations. However, I don't think those are as good a choice for home defense as the Hi-Power.




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Acera said:
Arizona Mike, since the OP seems to be new and asking questions, you might want to let him know that you had a $200 tax stamp with the BATFE approved paperwork for your Glock before you put that stock on it.

Saw people looking at similar items yesterday at a gun show who had no clue about what they were contemplating doing with their handguns, and it's legal ramifications.


Also curious AM, where did you do the engraving on your Glock??


.
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OP seems to be aware of the paperwork requirements: "you have to do all the paperwork to make one".

Underside of the trigger guard, mechanical micro-end mill. Very unobtrusive.

Mike
 
They don't need to be registered as an SBR if they are capable of full auto fire, no such thing as an SBR machine gun.

HPIM0327.jpg
 
Acera To the OP,

Here are a links to guns and stocks that does not require a tax stamp, so it would be OK for anyone the owner (you) lets use it to be in possession of it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/576321886
(Minimum cost to buy is $2,000.00.)
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Actually, that's a no reserve auction......which is sad because the description isn't close to being accurate.

The description says "original parkerized finish", but it's pretty common knowledge that Inglis guns were parked before the serial# was etched.....meaning the serial# on an original condition Inglis will be in the white (bare metal).

This Inglis has been refinished as the serial#'s are the same as the rest of the gun.
 
Acera said:
You might also look at Lugers and Broomhandles for non-NFA, pistol+stock combinations. However, I don't think those are as good a choice for home defense as the Hi-Power.
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Agreed. I wouldn't want to use my stocked Broomhandle for home defense, but it's a lot of fun to shoot.

43b7b18efe5fb0205f59af8be60dd359.jpg

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk
 
dogtown tom said:
Actually, that's a no reserve auction......which is sad because the description isn't close to being accurate.
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Yeah it is, but that is not how they always work.

I was going off what the seller said in his terms.

Free shipping and 3-month layaway(one third down) will be available once the bidding exceeds $2000, C&R is welcome!!!
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When I see this, somehow it always seems to magically get to around that number before it sells or gets pulled.


Had it happen to me on a few bids over the years. I plan on rechecking this one in about 4 days and putting in a bid if still this low.


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Or you could get a $200 stamp and put a stock on anything you wanted. Even if you bought a brand new Hi power you would still be money ahead.
 
jmorris said:
Or you could get a $200 stamp and put a stock on anything you wanted. Even if you bought a brand new Hi power you would still be money ahead.
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I am waiting on too many stamps right now that I might not see until the middle of next year, trying to avoid the pain of another. Plus, really dislike the new rule changes.



Looks like that one auction ended and it sold for $2,225, funny how it went up and past the sellers number, LOL.




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Looks like that one auction ended and it sold for $2,225, funny how it went up and past the sellers number, LOL.
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Auctions are funny things. Some things go for nothing and others go for more than new costs. Also a "winner" does not always pay.

The wait part also has people spending more money. Back after sandy hook and everyone was in full panic mode, I sold one of my 650's for over $1800 on eBay. 4 weeks later I had a new 1050 and a few hundred dollars, for my patience.
 
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