Question about taking prior convicted felon shooting.

[Frozen North]

A friend of mine lost her permit to carry because she was carrying in the same car as her felon boyfriend.

My ex wife and her new guy are both felons. They are not allowed to hunt, shoot, or have firearms in their home. My son wanted to bring his .22 to their home to target shoot. She made it VERY clear that this was not acceptable in any way and they could both end up in jail.

No worries, I have sole custody of my three boys and I would never let a gun go there.

Long story short. SAY NO! You can end up in trouble yourself!!!

 

[bikemutt]

A friend of mine lost her permit to carry because she was carrying in the same car as her felon boyfriend.

My ex wife and her new guy are both felons. They are not allowed to hunt, shoot, or have firearms in their home. My son wanted to bring his .22 to their home to target shoot. She made it VERY clear that this was not acceptable in any way and they could both end up in jail.

No worries, I have sole custody of my three boys and I would never let a gun go there.

Long story short. SAY NO! You can end up in trouble yourself!!!

Ignoring the individual who may have lost a privilege owing to association, these are examples of PRIVATE venues where I suppose a vindictive prosecutor could make some hay. The OP is concerned about PUBLIC places, as in there is DAYLIGHT present which holds imaginations to a higher standard.

Look, convicted drunks are told by the court not to frequent places that serve alcohol, convicted drug users are instructed not to hang around drug dealers, both while under court supervised release, also known as probation. Once these folks have satisfied their debts to society and their probation terms, they are free to make the same mistakes again.

With respect to firearms, I have yet to see a court order directing newly released felons not to hang around law-abiding friends who own guns. As far as law-abiding citizens go, I think probably all of them who enjoy their status understand that furnishing firearms to a felon is a bad idea.

I could be wrong here but, if no one is doing anything wrong, they should be free to go about their business.

 

[Black Butte]

Here we see the real value of AirSoft.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Let me ask this again:

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't the police have to prove that you knew he was a convicted felon and that you allowed him to shoot your guns anyway?

What if you had asked and he lied?

I let a neighbor put a few rounds through my AR the other day. He seems like a nice guy and as far as I know has never been in any serious trouble but I never asked. Do I have some legal obligation to run a background check on everyone that I let shoot my rifle?

 

[Birch Knoll]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't the police have to prove that you knew he was a convicted felon and that you allowed him to shoot your guns anyway?

Yes.

What if you had asked and he lied?

Felons lie?

I let a neighbor put a few rounds through my AR the other day. He seems like a nice guy and as far as I know has never been in any serious trouble but I never asked. Do I have some legal obligation to run a background check on everyone that I let shoot my rifle?

Of course not.

 

[bikemutt]

Let me ask this again:

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't the police have to prove that you knew he was a convicted felon and that you allowed him to shoot your guns anyway?

What if you had asked and he lied?

I let a neighbor put a few rounds through my AR the other day. He seems like a nice guy and as far as I know has never been in any serious trouble but I never asked. Do I have some legal obligation to run a background check on everyone that I let shoot my rifle?

In this case the OP KNOWS the person is a felon, and the felon knows the OP knows he is a felon, I think.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I had over 50 people in my house for a party last Christmas. Am I expected to know all of their criminal records? Some of them I only met within the last few years. What of ONE of them was a convicted fellon? I had an unsecured shotgun upstairs by my bed the entire time. Does that make me a potential criminal?

 

[788Ham]

No, however, isn't this forum a part of public record, can anything said on this forum be used in a court of law, as stated fact? Just a curious question. So if OP knows this guy is a felon, he's stated this as a fact, why lie? Would guilt by association doom him, depends if felon had firearm in his hands when approached.

 

[mortablunt]

Could he try to get his record expunged?

 

[Sam1911]

No, however, isn't this forum a part of public record, can anything said on this forum be used in a court of law, as stated fact? Just a curious question. So if OP knows this guy is a felon, he's stated this as a fact, why lie? Would guilt by association doom him, depends if felon had firearm in his hands when approached.

As fact? No. As evidence? Absolutely! We caution people about that kind of thing all the time. What you say here cannot be erased. (We can't even completely eradicate the public records of what's said here if we wanted to...) And it is all admissible in court as evidence of your own stated intents and knowledge.

So saying here that you know someone is a felon, and then later in court saying that you did NOT know he was a felon will get you an additional charge of perjury added to the list.

Now, you could hope and assume that an investigator would not look into your public postings, emails, and other communications... ... but they're pretty 'hip' these days.

 

[mortablunt]

^ There's a thread about that

Here's the link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=601810

 

[Bobson]

I had over 50 people in my house for a party last Christmas. Am I expected to know all of their criminal records? Some of them I only met within the last few years. What of ONE of them was a convicted fellon? I had an unsecured shotgun upstairs by my bed the entire time. Does that make me a potential criminal?

I don't think the question here is whether or not the OP could get away with it; the question is whether or not it's legal.

It's not always as simple as "its only illegal if you get caught." Some of us are in situations where we could lose a decades of work for trying to bend the rules. Its not worth it IMO, even if it results in the loss of a friendship. It would be super unfortunate, but a friend shouldn't put you in the situation where you have to choose.

 

[Sam1911]

I had over 50 people in my house for a party last Christmas. Am I expected to know all of their criminal records? Some of them I only met within the last few years. What of ONE of them was a convicted fellon? I had an unsecured shotgun upstairs by my bed the entire time. Does that make me a potential criminal?

Owen, it would help you a lot to read the US Code on firearms transfers: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

The words, "know or have reasonable cause to believe" show up in most matters involving "non-licensed" individuals. (Dealers are held to a higher standard.) If 50 people were at your house, and you don't know them all fairly closely, it is not reasonable to expect you to know that every one of them had a clean record, (and it sounds as though you were not providing them with firearms anyway).

Now, could the matter make you a criminal? Sure. The possibilities are many and as varied as your imagination. Can a prosecutor establish to a jury's satisfaction that you did have reasonable cause to believe the neighbor you let shoot in your yard was a felon? Well, maybe. It would suck to have to pay the legal bill to fight it, successfully or not.

Is it likely that you'll end up in court over an uneventful half-hour session of plinking -- even if the guy once was convicted of murder? No. So maybe the fact that you didn't inquire about his prison tattoo won't cause an issue. If you loaned him that gun and he later killed someone with it, well then you're going to spend some money on a lawyer.

Back to the Christmas party -- seems low-risk. You aren't deliberately supplying them with guns. The liklihood that you could be prosecuted because one felonious guest searched your closet and stole/accessed a firearm seem slim. Now change the scenario to an event where you're inviting those same 50 folks out to an afternoon of sporting clays or .22 plinking or whatever...you just might want to make some basic inquiries or work up a waiver or something. You're rolling those dice a bunch more times and shooting is a primary function of the event. A jury may believe it was "reasonable" for you to take some steps to ensure that you weren't handing a gun to any felons. Again, you might beat the rap, but not the legal fees.

Like so much of law, there is wrong, right, and then the vast expanse of grey area where guilt or innocence is going to depend on who can convince a jury of what. That's life.

 

[bikemutt]

I'd say half of what the OP asked is most likely not going to happen anyway; I have yet to join or visit any gun range where I didn't have to agree with, and sign, some paperwork which included language like "I'm not prohibited from possessing firearms". That alone should derail the entire gun range discussion.

I can't speak to big game hunting since I've not experienced it to date, but for upland bird hunting, there is so much more to it than just shooting birds IMO. As long as the felon is a non-shooting, non-gun-handling participant, I just don't see how he, or anyone else could find themselves in legal trouble because he was where guns are.

At some point in the game there may be 30 people on a bus, 10 of whom are felons, 15 who lawfully conceal carry. Whole lottta trouble there, must be a prison bus I guess.

 

[CoRoMo]

How about a package handler for one of the major shipping companies? If he's a felon, and he's delivering a load of guns to a dealer, is he technically in possession of the firearms and violating the law?

 

[Rail Driver]

I'd say half of what the OP asked is most likely not going to happen anyway; I have yet to join or visit any gun range where I didn't have to agree with, and sign, some paperwork which included language like "I'm not prohibited from possessing firearms". That alone should derail the entire gun range discussion.

That's odd. I have yet to join or visit any range where I had to sign ANY paperwork of ANY kind.

 

[bikemutt]

That's odd. I have yet to join or visit any range where I had to sign ANY paperwork of ANY kind.

Any gun range that doesn't have all participants sign a liability waiver at the least, is asking for trouble. Perhaps your State's immunity laws grant them cover, not around here.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I have shot in many postol matches at a variety of ranges over the years. They always make you sign a release but I have NEVER been asked if I was a convicted fellon. I have been to shooting seminars, gun shops and gun shows all over the Southeastern US and and the only time anyone asks anything is when I fill out that federal form for a new purchase.

Seems a lot like "don't ask, don't tell". They probably don't want to know anyway.

 

[Sam1911]

I have shot in many postol matches at a variety of ranges over the years. They always make you sign a release but I have NEVER been asked if I was a convicted felon.

Well, if they aren't providing you with a gun to shoot, they don't have any liability for your status as a prohibited person.

I assume you usually bring your own gun to shoot at most pistol matches?

If they ARE handing you a gun to shoot, I'll bet quite a lot that something you're signing includes a clause somewhere that says you are affirming that you are not a prohibited person.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Anybody ever go to one of those indoor ranges that rent guns?

A buddy went to one in Florida on vacation and rented a full-auto Thompson!

Do they inquire into your criminal history?
Do they have a way to verify that customers are telling the truth?
If someone is a convicted felon and lies anyway are they legally absolved?

 

[Sam1911]

Do they inquire into your criminal history?

Yes. You fill out a rental agreement. Somewhere on that paper is a clause that says by signing you are affirming that you are not a "prohibited person." (Like a felon.)

Do they have a way to verify that customers are telling the truth?

No. And they don't have to. Even a gun dealer making a SALE only has what the NICS tells him to go on.

You, as a private party are held to even a lower standard: again, "do not know or have a reasonable cause to believe..."

If someone is a convicted felon and lies anyway are they legally absolved?

Yes. Of course. If they are not required to perform an instant check then they must go on the signed declaration of the customer. The rental agency has no further recourse to be able to prove the matter. They cannot be held liable for the renter's lie.

You, as a non-licensed person, don't even have to meet that standard, all you have to prove is that you did not know or have reasonable cause to know. Unless you really DID know, that shouldn't be hard to do.

 

[Birch Knoll]

Geez, is there another way you can ask exactly the same question?

Do they inquire into your criminal history?

They might. If you fill out and sign a rental agreement, it may contain an affirmation that you are not prohibited from possessing firearms.

Do they have a way to verify that customers are telling the truth?

Not unless there's a reason to complete a 4473, in which case a NICS check would be run. That probably wouldn't happen.

If someone is a convicted felon and lies anyway are they legally absolved?

Asked and answered. If you have no reason to believe they are prohibited,you have not committed a crime. But prosecutors are adept at proving things that aren't so, so it pays to be cautious.

 

[Owen Sparks]

It sounds like the best policy for individuals is just to not ask.

 

[Sam1911]

It sounds like the best policy for individuals is just to not ask.

Well that's one way of looking at it.

Another is, it does no harm to ask and then you've covered one small base. "I asked, he said no. I had no reasonable cause to believe otherwise."

Plus, for those who would prefer not to violate the law, knowingly or unknowingly, it provides you with the possibility that the person may honestly tell you that, yes, they had some trouble with the law. Then you can make an informed decision based on the law.

We certainly get enough folks here who say, "I have had X,Y,Z conviction 10 years back...is that going to stop me from buying a gun?" Gun shop owners have 'most all seen at least a few folks who check off the "YES" boxes on the 4473 and admit that they have had a conviction, simply because they did not know or understand that that would be a red flag to gun ownership. Not every prohibited person is deceptive about it or understands that there is a problem with them touching a firearm.

By asking, you might get lied to. Or you might get told the truth. Either way, you've done about all you can do. So that seems like more the "best policy."

 

[rockyrgs]

Protect yourself and home by keeping your firearms in a locked vault while entertaining guests. You hopefully will not be needing your defense weapon at those times if you know your guests as friends/relatives, even if you don't know their backgrounds very well. Your firearms are all protected from handling, theft, or use. Know personal unarmed defense responses if need be.