Question for 1911 Tuner

[pittspilot]

On the thread about de-cocking the 1911, you disparaged decocking levers.

I am no expert, and therefore ask this question to clear up my level of understanding.

I have a decocker on my SIG 2340. I always understood that when you used the decocker to lower the hammer for double action, that while the hammer dropped, the integral firing pin lock did not disengage. Also, you had the ability to control how fast the hammer falls with the decock lever.

Therefore, in order to fire, the lever would have to fail as would the firing pin lock at the same moment. With two mechanical safeties, I do not feel I am taking a high risk when decocking the gun. Any more then I am loading the gun and dropping the slide on a loaded magazine.

Naturally I do not undertake any of these activities without observing all the rules.

I am not trying to argue at all. I actually do not have the technical competence to argue this point with you. I just have a users practical sense. If it is wrong, I would like to know.

Thanks

 

[waktasz]

Being a mechanical device it can fail, the chance both things happening at once is very small, but still possible.

 

[cratz2]

Not to speak for him, but what are you expecting him to say? That he was totally wrong and now embraces the idea of a decocker?

Here's the deal... Any mechanical device can fail. Period. Firing pin blocks, decockers, sears... any of them can fail and have failed. The question is, which devices do you have the most faith in? I grew up with 1911s... First handgun I shot, first handgun I bought, first handgun I carried. Today, I'm much more likely to carry a CZ decocker and I have carried two SIGs including a 2340. My gun instinct is this, if I was somehow forced to disobey all the rules of safe shooting and had to have a firearm trained on someone I cared about, I would rather have a 1911 cocked and locked pointed at someone with my finger off the safety and off the trigger rather than decock a SIG.

 

[Old Fuff]

One issue is the improbable but possible mechanical failure of the decocker/safety. Another is that each time the decocker is applied the trigger pull returns to the double action mode. Therefore one has to learn to control two markedly different trigger pulls, one light and one heavy.

The 1911 designed guns have a consistant trigger pull regardless of how or when the safety is used. Unfortunately modern designers have made their pistols more safe at the expense of making them less viable as weapons. The better safeties may be the way to go with incompetent under trained/less experienced users, but I would hate to be left with a weapon intended for the least knowledgeable person.

 

[Archangel]

Just to play devils advocate...

For a SIG (for example) to fire while being de-cocked, you'd have to have a simultaneous catastophic failure of the decocker, safety intercept notch (like a half-cock), and the firing pin block.

Similarly, for a 1911 to fire from cocked and locked, you'd have to have the same sort of simultaneous failure of the sear (or the hammer hooks and halfcock notch), the thumb safety, and the firing pin block if it has one.

Same number of parts have to break. The difference is that decocking is an administrative function. You load, decock, and then the gun is safe. Once it's de-cocked, there's no spring pressure to drive the failure to AD. With a 1911 cocked and locked, that spring pressure is always there. Plus, the thumb safety must be disengaged to rack the slide, so that's one less part that needs to fail for it to AD during loading / unloading. So which is safer?

Long story short, you should always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction anyway during administrative functions like loading, unloading, and decocking. You could just as easily (or more likely) have a slam fire from a high primer while loading as have an AD while decocking.

For the record, I have both SIGs and 1911s, and feel completely confident and comfortable with both. But I prefer the 1911s.

 

[1911Tuner]

Decockers

First...Decocking devices are nothing new. The Walther P-38 was designed long before any of these modern marvels, and they were just as well-designed and as safe as any...and they occasionally failed to prevent an unintentional discharge.

Any mechanical device can fail to perform as designed. Trusting a safety
device on any firearm...no matter how well-designed...has the potential to
bring you to grief. Modern decocking levers rarely fail, but when one does
fail, it drives that point home loud and clear. I saw one fail, and tried for 30 minutes to try to get it to do it again...and couldn't. I can't explain it.
I'm not sure if the man who designed it could either...at least not to my satisfaction. All I know is that when the man hit the lever, the gun fired.


Which brings me to my bottom line concerning decockers, and it has not one thing to do with the mechanical aspect of the design. It's as sound
as any...It's as "safe" as any. The problem lies in the human factor. It encourages us to trust it, and in doing so, it gives rise to sloppy gun-handling habits. The AD that I mentioned above missed the young woman's foot by an inch or so, because her instructor trusted the device
to the extent that his attention lapsed for a second, and he wasn't watching where she had the muzzle pointed...which was between her feet and slightly to port. At least with a cocked hammer, everyone knows exactly where they stand.

And the second part of the bottom line is:

It's a GUN! It's NOT SAFE!

Cheers all!

Tuner

 

[Dave Sample]

I am not qualified to comment.

 

[pittspilot]

I didn't expect tuner to change his mind, I was just curious about his rational.

I thought I made that clear.

Thanks for answering the question. I definitely agree that decocking should be done while paying attention. But then again, everything to do with guns should be done with attention.

 

[1911Tuner]

Reasons

Howdy pittspilot (Whew! Almost typo-ed that into "pisspilot")

It's not the decockers themselves that make me nervous...That problem is
neatly solved by just controlling the hammer as they come down. The issue is that a frightening number of people look at the hammer when decocking, whether they use their thumb or a device...and that ain't where they're supposed ta be lookin'. It's a natural urge that causes even experienced people to brainfart once in a while. I think that the decockers are actually pretty ingenious devices. I just don't trust'em.

Next time you're at a range with guys who are usin' DA autopistols with decockers, pay attention to'em. Unless they're a pretty squared-away bunch, you'll see that happen a lot.

Good topic, though. It was a question that deserved a straight answer,
and my opion is just that. Yours may be on the opposite end of the spectrum, but that shouldn't keep us from hookin' up for a shoot sometime. I'll keep an eye on ya though...

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[pittspilot]

Thanks for that answer.

I have been involved in the flying business for a long time. Wierd mechanical failures and operator stupidity are no mystery to me. I think you would find that I conduct my shooting the way that I did my flying. Leave as little room for Mr. Murphy to play as is humanly possible.