I have a PWS MK 114 that is chambered in .223 wylde. I have been running american eagle .223 55 gr fmj through her with awesome accuracy. I grabbed some american eagle 5.56 55gr fmj last week and when I shot it today my point of impact was about an inch and a half low. I switched back to .223 and it was right on the money. Has anyone else with a .223 wylde chamber experience this by just switching from .223 to 5.56 nato?
question for .223 wylde owners.
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allaroundhunter
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I would expect a POI shift because you are switching to ammo produced differently from the batch that you zeroed with. I bet that you could get another box of American Eagle .223 with a different lot number and have your POI shift.
Doesn't have anything to do with the Wylde chambering.
Doesn't have anything to do with the Wylde chambering.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1
It isn't the Wilde chamber, or the ammo.
When you switch ammo.
Always expect a POI change on the sight zero.
rc
It isn't the Wilde chamber, or the ammo.
When you switch ammo.
Always expect a POI change on the sight zero.
rc
GooseGestapo
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The accuracy you describe with the Federal ammo is unexpected but realistic.
I bought some Federal FMJ projectiles from Graf's before Sandy Hook.
I loaded them up with my "usual" load of BLC2 which has given superlative accuracy with match grade bullets.
Imagine my suprise when I shot some through my AR and got 7/8"-1" 5-shot groups.
Very un-typical for full metal jacketed bullets in the .223/5.56
I bought some Federal FMJ projectiles from Graf's before Sandy Hook.
I loaded them up with my "usual" load of BLC2 which has given superlative accuracy with match grade bullets.
Imagine my suprise when I shot some through my AR and got 7/8"-1" 5-shot groups.
Very un-typical for full metal jacketed bullets in the .223/5.56
Shooting 55gr from a 223 wylde chamber is going to be "not so great."
223 Wylde is throated LONG, to accomodate longer-than-magazine length 77 and 80 grain bullets which are single-loaded in to the action.
If you shoot magazine-length bullets (of any type, weight, manufacture) you're going to have a LOT of freebore - the amount of bore the bullet travels before encountering rifling.
Because of that, your velocity will be pretty inconsistent - moreso than a normal AR-15 / 223 / 5.56 chamber, when shooting magazine-length cartridges (cartridges that can fit in the STANAG magazine).
To get the most out of your rifle you need to figure out where the lands are with a comparator gauge, and handload ammunition for your rifle. The ammunition will NOT fit in a magazine, it'll be too long; you'll have to single load it.
With that being said, you can probably develop some longer range (600 yard) loads that are sub MOA.
The catch is, you'll have to load it like a single shot rifle to take advantage of it.
If that isn't what you'd planned on (you're shooting factory 55 gr ammo???), you really should switch barrels to a standard 223 or 5.56 barrel, so you can run normal ammo properly (and without the freebore/velocity issues).
Will a 223 Wylde shoot normal ammo? Of course.
Will it shoot it as good as a 223 or 5.56 barrel? Not very damn likely.
(If you are getting 'awesome accuracy' from 55 gr w/ all that freebore, imagine what you should get with proper handloads in that chambering...)
(I own a match barrel in 223 Wylde, it's a purpose built AR-15 for 600+ yard shooting)
-T
223 Wylde is throated LONG, to accomodate longer-than-magazine length 77 and 80 grain bullets which are single-loaded in to the action.
If you shoot magazine-length bullets (of any type, weight, manufacture) you're going to have a LOT of freebore - the amount of bore the bullet travels before encountering rifling.
Because of that, your velocity will be pretty inconsistent - moreso than a normal AR-15 / 223 / 5.56 chamber, when shooting magazine-length cartridges (cartridges that can fit in the STANAG magazine).
To get the most out of your rifle you need to figure out where the lands are with a comparator gauge, and handload ammunition for your rifle. The ammunition will NOT fit in a magazine, it'll be too long; you'll have to single load it.
With that being said, you can probably develop some longer range (600 yard) loads that are sub MOA.
The catch is, you'll have to load it like a single shot rifle to take advantage of it.
If that isn't what you'd planned on (you're shooting factory 55 gr ammo???), you really should switch barrels to a standard 223 or 5.56 barrel, so you can run normal ammo properly (and without the freebore/velocity issues).
Will a 223 Wylde shoot normal ammo? Of course.
Will it shoot it as good as a 223 or 5.56 barrel? Not very damn likely.
(If you are getting 'awesome accuracy' from 55 gr w/ all that freebore, imagine what you should get with proper handloads in that chambering...)
(I own a match barrel in 223 Wylde, it's a purpose built AR-15 for 600+ yard shooting)
-T
crazysccrmd
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Arizona_Mike
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Probably different muzzle velocity or bullet shape/drag. Expected when changing ammo types.
Mike
Mike
carbine85
Member
You didn't mention the twist. I have a 1:8 Wylde that can shoot 1/2" MOA if I do my parts. I normally shoot 69 grain ammo.
RainDodger
Member
Trent, you may be technically correct, but I disagree with your conclusion, "Will it shoot it as good as a 223 or 5.56 barrel? Not very damn likely." You can also say there's always an exception. 
Out of a safe full of relatively nice rifles with a number of them being dedicated heavy-barreled varmint guns, I am routinely more accurate with my Wylde-chambered, 20" free-floated Rock River Arms AR-15. Although I don't generally shoot 55 grain bullets, my hand loads are 60 grain Sierras (FBHPs - 1375s). Not heavier match bullets. Even with lighter bullets - and I've ventured all the way down to 40 grain bullets just for fun - the rifle has been very accurate. Even with that long freebore, which isn't all that much longer than NATO chambers, especially compared to the other specs in the chart that crazy was nice enough to paste in.
A Wylde chamber is simply a chamber that's in the middle, if you will. It can be very suitable for .223 or 5.56. Your mileage may vary, but I've had a lot of good luck with mine.
Out of a safe full of relatively nice rifles with a number of them being dedicated heavy-barreled varmint guns, I am routinely more accurate with my Wylde-chambered, 20" free-floated Rock River Arms AR-15. Although I don't generally shoot 55 grain bullets, my hand loads are 60 grain Sierras (FBHPs - 1375s). Not heavier match bullets. Even with lighter bullets - and I've ventured all the way down to 40 grain bullets just for fun - the rifle has been very accurate. Even with that long freebore, which isn't all that much longer than NATO chambers, especially compared to the other specs in the chart that crazy was nice enough to paste in.
A Wylde chamber is simply a chamber that's in the middle, if you will. It can be very suitable for .223 or 5.56. Your mileage may vary, but I've had a lot of good luck with mine.
LocoGringo
Member
Yeah, Trent, I disagree also. I use an 18" 1:8 twist Wylde chambered AR for 3-gun competition. To prepare for the Rockcastle Pro/Am this year, I had to find out what my aiming point was for 300 yards using plain, cheap PMC Bronze 55 grain FMJBT ammo. Once I found my aiming point, I tried a 5-shot group on the head of a standard size silhouette shooting from a front rest and using a rear bag at 300 yards. Of the 5 rounds, 3 were in an almost perfect straight line measuring 1.1" (outside to outside) within the "kill circle" of the head.
I don't handload for .223/5.56 yet, but several varieties of 69 grain match ammo have ALL shot fantastic in the same rifle. I've really only found 1 or 2 brands of ammo that haven't done well and the grain weights of them were 55 grain and 75 grain. I think it depends more on the load than the weight bullet.
My view of the Wylde chamber is that it gives you the best of both worlds being able to shoot any ammo out there more accurately than the NATO chamber and without the concerns of overpressure of .223 ammo in the "wrong" chamber. I'm a big fan of the Wylde chamber.
To answer the OP, I agree with everyone else here. Different ammo gives different points of impact with the same zero.
I don't handload for .223/5.56 yet, but several varieties of 69 grain match ammo have ALL shot fantastic in the same rifle. I've really only found 1 or 2 brands of ammo that haven't done well and the grain weights of them were 55 grain and 75 grain. I think it depends more on the load than the weight bullet.
My view of the Wylde chamber is that it gives you the best of both worlds being able to shoot any ammo out there more accurately than the NATO chamber and without the concerns of overpressure of .223 ammo in the "wrong" chamber. I'm a big fan of the Wylde chamber.
To answer the OP, I agree with everyone else here. Different ammo gives different points of impact with the same zero.
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Trent, sorry to gang up, but I disagree as well. 223 Wylde will shoot any load as good as any other chamber. It will depend more on load, bullet and barrel twist. Also, my Wyldes will shoot all bullets including 55gr better than my other barrels. My Wyldes have been my most accurate.
Welding Rod
Member
My experience as well.
I had no idea how accurate some bargain 55 grain could be until I shot it in my RRAs, which are Wylde chambered.
There's only one reamer on the list that has longer freebore.
And I don't mind getting ganged up on.
The point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully), is 223 Wylde gives a handloader a whole new world of options.
The longer freebore, with standard length ammunition, puts you in to the same territory as Weatherby did for shooters. He started making new cartridges, and rifles with longer freebore, as a way of "cheating" the pressure curve. And he was rewarded with the ability to pack even more powder in to the case, yet still not have case ruptures.
Why?
Because longer freebore = lower pressure curves. The bullet can jump a little out of the case, unimpeded, increasing effective case volume, which lowers the burn rate curve.
With AR-15's, which are already pushing the very limits of what brass can stand, on the higher end loadings, this is a good thing.
But when you are shooting *factory* ammunition which is charged by volume, the inconsistent weights of the charge, PLUS freebore, equals less consistency.
Given two barrels; one in 223 Wylde, and one in 5.56 NATO, of the same length, materials, and rifling, shooting the same ammunition, the one in 223 Wylde will post lower velocities because the pressure that builds is slightly less. If you shoot it over a chrono, you'll also notice that ammunition will also develop a wider velocity standard deviation.
At 100 yards, this effect is hardly measurable; time of flight is so incredibly short, it really doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things.
But as you reach out to 200, 300, 400+ yards, you'll notice vertical stringing with factory ammo (or, for any progressive reloads with charges dumped by volume), because with time of flight, every "problem" with your load is more pronounced (wind drift, drop, spin drift, etc all will change more, over time, with a wider starting velocity range).
The 223 wylde chamber will exacerbate those inconsistencies even MORE than a tighter chambered rifle with less freebore.
Now, with handloads using measured / weighed powder charges, you gain some advantages with 223 wylde.
First, because of the small amount of additional freebore, you'll find your "max load" ceiling is lifted.
Second, you will not have as much pressure on primers; so you can go further with thinner cup primers before you start to blow them out / crater / flatten / rupture them. For a comparison of primer cup thickness; (http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/)
Third, you have a greater range of seating depth to play with, on the "longer" bullets (69, 75, 77, 80 gr). That's a HUGE advantage because if you seat those bullets to magazine-capable length, you lose a LOT of powder capacity (except 80 gr, it really can't be loaded to magazine length safely, period). When you lose that powder capacity, you ALSO lose a lot of your "range" of powder choices.
Meaning, you may not FIND an accuracy node with 69 or 75 grain bullets in a tighter chambered AR-15 barrel, because you can only go "so long" before your projectile hits the lands when chambered, and spikes pressures. You may find that nothing you try in the acceptable range, loaded to magazine length, will work, because you have such a narrow range of powder charges to play with.
Remember when handloading we're trying to A - get a consistent velocity deviation (within a few FPS), and B - get the projectiles to exit the muzzle at a period of harmonic "silence". Barrel steel vibrates like crazy when that ignition happens and if the barrel is vibrating when the projectiles leave, it opens groups up. If the barrel is BETWEEN harmonic vibrations, it shrinks groups down. (In the 22LR world, people have to use tensioners or harmonic balancers to tune the gun to the ammo, since we can't tune the ammo to the gun... in the centerfire world, we tune the ammo to the barrel/gun via reloading...)
Anyway.
Yes, you can plink & shoot factory ammo all day out of a 223 Wylde.
Yes, you can find 55, 62, etc grain loads that'll work good.
But... if you handload, and know your business... you can make those longer throated guns really sing.
Thanks.
I wasn't really intending on getting THAT deep in to the rabbit hole, but needed to explain the advantages / disadvantages of 223 Wylde and the Match chamberings after people dog piled on me.
I still stand by my original statements, but gave a long enough rebuttal to the rebuttals to justify why this time.
Trent, I don't understand your conclusion as a 5.56 chamber has even more freebore than a Wylde.
I guess it all depends on your opinion on whether seating closer to the lands always results in better accuracy. I've read opinions that say it does and sometimes it doesn't. I've never tested multiple COL's with the same load so I can't offer an opinion.
All I can say is that I owned a 24" RRA Wylde that shot lights out when it was new. I replaced that barrel after 4500 rounds with a Kreiger .223 chamber that doesn't shoot any better with mag length or seated close to the lands.
Laphroaig
RainDodger
Member
Hey Trent - all interesting information, thus an interesting thread. Here's one last comment, fwiw..
You say above, "But when you are shooting *factory* ammunition which is charged by volume, the inconsistent weights of the charge, PLUS freebore, equals less consistency."
That's an interesting comment, and here's why. I took a bunch of different factory rounds to the range, along with my chronograph. I was quite surprised when I found that the standard deviation figures for velocity were routinely in the 20 - 30 FPS range with nearly all the factory stuff I was shooting (cheap PMC Bronze was the highest at 61, but most were in the 30s).... yet the group size was consistent with a lot of military stuff - all on the order of 1.5 - 2 MOA.
Then I ran my hand loads over the chrono. First I was dismayed to see standard deviations in the 50+ FPS area! Holy crap! Not good! But then I looked at group size. I was pretty routinely cutting ragged 5-round holes at 100 yards, despite the "inconsistent" velocity.
I don't really know what all that means, bottom line. What really matters is whether you can hit what you're aiming at, and the Wylde chamber seems to do quite well at that; generally more "consistently" than my other chambers.
You say above, "But when you are shooting *factory* ammunition which is charged by volume, the inconsistent weights of the charge, PLUS freebore, equals less consistency."
That's an interesting comment, and here's why. I took a bunch of different factory rounds to the range, along with my chronograph. I was quite surprised when I found that the standard deviation figures for velocity were routinely in the 20 - 30 FPS range with nearly all the factory stuff I was shooting (cheap PMC Bronze was the highest at 61, but most were in the 30s).... yet the group size was consistent with a lot of military stuff - all on the order of 1.5 - 2 MOA.
Then I ran my hand loads over the chrono. First I was dismayed to see standard deviations in the 50+ FPS area! Holy crap! Not good! But then I looked at group size. I was pretty routinely cutting ragged 5-round holes at 100 yards, despite the "inconsistent" velocity.
I don't really know what all that means, bottom line. What really matters is whether you can hit what you're aiming at, and the Wylde chamber seems to do quite well at that; generally more "consistently" than my other chambers.
Are you looking at the correct row on here?
The only thing with more freebore than a Wylde is the 223 Rem Match reamer...
It means to keep working on it. One of my high power shooters uses a load that is 5 fps extreme spread.
You can be +/- 50fps at 100 yards and get nice groups.
For a 55 grain Hornady V-Max bullet, on a 200 yard zero (so we can see a difference in the plot at 100 yards), the impact at 100 yards is:
3200 +1.38"
3150 +1.56"
(0.18" difference extreme vertical spread)
Throw a 10 mph crosswind in there for some deflection
3200 1.05" wind drift
3150 1.18" wind drift (.13" greater)
That's not going to make your groups much bigger... 0.2" horizontal and .13" vertical, at most.
Change the zero to 100 yards and plot the difference at 300 yards:
3200 -11.18" drop
3150 -12.39" drop
1.21" difference! We're 3x the distance but *over 7 times* the change in vertical deflection (.18" to 1.21")
Windage :
3200 10.66"
3150 12.09"
1.43" difference. Again, we're 3x the distance but wind has affected our bullet's trajectory *11 times* more than it did at 100 yards, due to velocity difference. (.13" difference in the two trajectories at 100, now at 1.43" difference at 300 yards!)
As you can see, as the bullet goes down range, the differences in both elevation and windage get MUCH larger. Shooting at 50 or 100 yards, you won't see it. Shooting a slow fire prone leg of a High Power match at 600 yards? It'll throw you clear in to the next ring.
600 yards:
3200 -91.99" drop, 52.97" windage (still using 10mph crosswind)
3150 -104.23" drop, 61.54" windage
We're at 6x the distance now (600 yards) but that 50fps extreme spread means our bullets are dropping OVER A FOOT different between each other. (12.24"). we've increased the distance 6x, but drop has gone from an insignificant .18" difference between the rounds, to 12.24". That's an increase of 68 *times* the difference in impacts comparing 100 yard differences on drop, to 600 yard differences.
Windage is similar; there's now a 8.57" difference between the two bullets travelling the 50fps difference, at 600 yards, up from .13 difference at 100 yards. That's a 65-fold increase in deviation after a 6-fold increase in distance travelled!
I don't really know what all that means, bottom line. What really matters is whether you can hit what you're aiming at, and the Wylde chamber seems to do quite well at that; generally more "consistently" than my other chambers.
To be honest, they'll ALL shoot more or less the same at short ranges (under 200 yards.)
It's only when you really start to "get out there" that ammo consistency truly matters.
Trent,
I wish that there were more .223 Wylde reamer dimensions other than the single JGS reamer.
My understanding of the various chamber dimensions is more in line with Zedikers, see page 2 of the attached link:
http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf
I've also measured some chambers with 80 gr. SMK's touching the lands, as follows:
5.56 - 2.540"
RRA Wylde, with 4100 rounds thru it - 2.520"
DPMS .223 chamber - 2.420"
Laphroaig
I wish that there were more .223 Wylde reamer dimensions other than the single JGS reamer.
My understanding of the various chamber dimensions is more in line with Zedikers, see page 2 of the attached link:
http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf
I've also measured some chambers with 80 gr. SMK's touching the lands, as follows:
5.56 - 2.540"
RRA Wylde, with 4100 rounds thru it - 2.520"
DPMS .223 chamber - 2.420"
Laphroaig
RainDodger
Member
Trent, you're obviously more schooled on the subject than I am. I bow to your knowledge regarding shooting the 5.56 at longer ranges. I wish I had the time and space to do the same stuff! Maybe when I retire, but then I'd have to buy enough land for a 1,000 yard range! Hm.
For my purposes, the 5.56 ARs are for shorter ranges, so it's less of a concern for me. I can balance the fun of hand loading against the thought that if I'm going out beyond 300 yards or so, I have weapons much more suited. Bigger bores, bigger bullets and bigger scopes. At present, I don't sort cases or make distinctions between primer manufacturers or bullet lots. Not for 5.56. I figure the higher standard deviation is a combination of those factors but even combined, at the ranges I'm shooting 5.56, I hit what I aim at. Maybe someday I can spend the time perfecting longer range shots. Thanks for taking the time to post.
For my purposes, the 5.56 ARs are for shorter ranges, so it's less of a concern for me. I can balance the fun of hand loading against the thought that if I'm going out beyond 300 yards or so, I have weapons much more suited. Bigger bores, bigger bullets and bigger scopes.
At present, I don't sort cases or make distinctions between primer manufacturers or bullet lots. Not for 5.56. I figure the higher standard deviation is a combination of those factors but even combined, at the ranges I'm shooting 5.56, I hit what I aim at. Maybe someday I can spend the time perfecting longer range shots. Thanks for taking the time to post.- Status
