Question for those in the military/preferably with combat experience

[ny32182]

First of all, thank you for your service. The following is something I've wondered for a while, and serves no other purpose than to satisfy my own curiosity: With the M16/M4 and all of its derivatives in use by the military, what percentage of time is the rifle used in burst or full auto fire? What percentage of the time is it used it semi? What situations call for semi, vs burst/auto? Are there rules regarding what mode of fire is used? Thanks for any and all input from those who have first hand experience.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

what percentage of time is the rifle used in burst or full auto fire?

Perhaps 1%; certainly no more.

What percentage of the time is it used it semi?

The other 99+%.

What situations call for semi, vs burst/auto?

Virtually every engagement with an M-16A2/A4/M-4 calls for semiautomatic fire. Situations that may call for the weapon to be employed using burst or auto would be an assistant gunner engaging targets while the gunner clears a malfunction on the machine gun, engagement of an area target at extended ranges (500 meter+), small units attempting to break contact from a numerically superior force. There are others.

Are there rules regarding what mode of fire is used?

Yes, methods of engagement are specified in unit SOP's. (At least in good units). Good non-commissioned officers discourage the use of the rifle in anything other than the semiautomatic mode unless SOP's dictate otherwise.

 

[1911 guy]

Ditto Blackhawk 6

Semi auto is the order of the day except for certain circumstances. Some of these are: You're the AR (automatic rifleman) since we in the Navy don't get SAW's we use A3's that are "full auto" vs three round burst. The other exception that I remember off the top of my head is FPF (final protective fire) used when disengaging. Again, it's not everybody opening up but a few designated rifles. Unless you fall in one of these categories, your firing had better be 100% semi-automatic.

 

[MikeIsaj]

+1 what Blackhawk 6 said.

 

[Devonai]

I've been ordered to put my selector switch on burst twice, once while practicing the Australian (or banana) peel technique of breaking contact, and once while practicing a near ambush. All other training was conducted with our rifles on semi.

 

[Balog]

My unit uses semi %100 of the time. Not sure if the line companies do it the same way, but I've never heard of burst being used outside of ranges. And we only do it there because it's fun.

Of course the Corps has 1. a strong emphasis on well aimed shots & 2. lots of SAW's and 240G's. My unit also rolls with the heavy guns (M2 and MK-19). For uses such as marking a target for the heavy guns etc, we just go with pulling the trigger really fast. I can personally pull the trigger on a 16 X3 as fast if not faster than the cyclic rate on burst.

 

[ny32182]

Thanks all for the input.

 

[chopinbloc]

i'm not on the pointy end of the spear but i'll add my opinion fwiw.

burst fire from a rifle is only useful at very close range, the way i see it. when clearing houses and such you'll want the guy to go down quick and stay down so a burst to center mass is likely accomplish this. it WILL NOT increase hit percentage outside about 25 meters. and yeah, it's more fun.

 

[Soap]

A close friend of mine has seen many real world combat situations abroad...he told me that he has never, ever, used full auto if the semi option was available. Of course he used it when he was a SAW gunner, but if he had an M4, semi.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Burst fire is the recommended method while firing from a moving vehicle at point targets. A 3 round burst has a higher probability of a hit if you didnt compensate for lead.

Other then that, I never used my rifle in burst mode during combat.

 

[jonnyc]

In the IDF we never trained with full-auto, just repeated double-taps. We were told about auto fire and some specialized uses, but only used it at "play time".

 

[1 old 0311]

Blackhawk is correct. In 2 years in Vietnam I used full auto 2-3 times.

Kevin
A 1/3 3Rd Mar Div, RVN

 

[VG]

First of all, thank you for your service.

No, thank you for paying me to fire an M16A1, M203, M2, M60, a number of grenades, several pounds of C4, about 100 rounds of 105mm main gun ammunition, etc. Not to mention the C141 and C130 rides, the free parachute packing, and the opportunity to see just exactly how bold Army Warrant Officer pilots of UH1's, Blackhawks, and Kiowas really are. And all the great food.....

I went through Infantry OSUT in 1982 when we were still using M16A1's with full-auto mode.

Automatic Rifle was one of the qualiications. The instructor made the point that something like 90% of all target hits were the first round and something like 97% were the first three.

Being the math genius I am, I quickly realized that trying to hold a light rifle with a high cyclic rate of fire on a point target was not the best way to use the ammunition I so laboriously carried all August in Georgia. Although Infantry Privates are not often confused with University Professors, I noticed many others with the same realization.

This is why, once I went to OCS and became an officer, I branched to Armored Cavalry*. My platoon basic load was something like seven tons and the only stuff I had to carry myself was 21 rounds of 45 ACP.....

*Actually I got branched Armored Cav because that's what the Army picked for me but it isn't as good a story......

 

[.45-70TC]

In Vietnam the only time my M-16 was in FULL, no burst then, was during 'fan-firing' to be sure they worked!

Hey Kevin, Semper Fi, 9MT Bn., 3rd MarDiv, I Corps '67-'68

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay not to hijack the thread, but if semi-auto is used as often as it is and burst or automatic fire is so rarely employed, then what is the point of having a small caliber round and an assault rifle. I thought that historically, the point of the assault rifle was to provide automatic fire and the point of the intermediate powered rifle round was to allow enough ammunition to fire the rifle automatic. If soldiers primarily engage in semi-automatic, then wouldn't they be equally or better suited with a battle rifle such as the M14? Again historically, I thought the battle rifle was discarded in favor of the assault rifle because it wasn't practical firing automatic. Educate me because I obviously messed up somewhere.

 

[KriegHund]

M-14 on full auto was rather uncrountralable as well.

Small calibre? The reasons?

More rounds, higher sustained accurate fire (lower recoil).

Try shooting a .308 on semi auto as quickly and accuratly as possible. Than try it with a .223. The a .22. Rather easier as the round gets smaller.

Plus, with those old HUGE rounds like the .30-06 or 8mm mauser, there was little point to them when a .308 had the same effective range and killed just as well.

Look at history and the rounds always get smaller- .61 cal, .50 cal muskets, 45-70, than .308 rounds but long cartridge cases, then .308 shorter cases, and finally many militarys are down to the 7-5mm cartridges.

 

[NMshooter]

Since this thread has been hijacked I will post my two cents worth:

6 30 round M-16 magazines, 180 rounds, 6lbs.

4 20 round M-14 magazines, 80 rounds, 6lbs.

 

[Citadel99]

We would use burst during convoy operations. Other than that it was semi all the way.

Mark

 

[Seabee71]

1911 Guy

Semi auto is the order of the day except for certain circumstances. Some of these are: You're the AR (automatic rifleman) since we in the Navy don't get SAW's we use A3's that are "full auto" vs three round burst. The other exception that I remember off the top of my head is FPF (final protective fire) used when disengaging. Again, it's not everybody opening up but a few designated rifles. Unless you fall in one of these categories, your firing had better be 100% semi-automatic.

A fellow Seabee perhaps?????? It sucks we have no SAW's. 1911 Guy is on time. With the Navy Seabees we have 3 Fireteams of 4 guys in each Squad. Each Firteam has a Automatic Rifleman. Still no 3 round burst, but it makes our USMC brothers jealous!!! On a side note, we finally got rid of the weak M60E3's and now have M240B!!!!!!

 

[goon]

Never been in combat but while I was in I had one M-16 on burst one time for exactly one magazine. That was it. The rest of the time it was semi auto fire. I did fool people into thinking I was firing burst a few times though with rapid semi auto fire. I can fire three rounds fast enough that it is pretty difficult to tell the difference.
If you practice a little you really don't lose much by losing the burst.

 

[VG]

I thought that historically, the point of the assault rifle was to provide automatic fire and the point of the intermediate powered rifle round was to allow enough ammunition to fire the rifle automatic.

The summary of Army studies from both Korea and Vietnam posted on the USAIS forum stated that over 70% of infantry engagements were 100 meters or less and 90+% at 200 meters or less.

 

[Sam]

About 1% of the time. While marking targets.

Sam

 

[Joe Mamma]

What does "marking targets" mean?

Joe Mamma

 

[Sam]

Lacing a half dozen tracers into an area that I want the MMG to work over.
Carry a couple mags loaded with straight tracer for that purpose.

Sam

 

[AhmuqGB]

Blackhawk 6 is right (don't let it go to your head K.) I might go a little higher than 1% but not very much. It is useful it gaining immediate suppression, but you have to ramp it down fairly quickly, 30 rounds sounds like a lot but aint, 180rounds(a basic load) sounds like a lot but aint, especially on a long patrol. I'm not saying I was conscious of conserving ammo, but I was trying to kill the BG as fast as possible and semi is FAR more accurate. Also, most units in the Army at least don't train on firing burst and it is a skill, unless you are just trying to turn bullets into noise in which case blaze away ;-)

burst fire from a rifle is only useful at very close range, the way i see it. when clearing houses and such you'll want the guy to go down quick and stay down so a burst to center mass is likely accomplish this. it WILL NOT increase hit percentage outside about 25 meters. and yeah, it's more fun.

not sure I would agree with that. even at close range the recoil even for 5.56 in burst fire unless you have trained on it will push the average shooter off target and you can fire about as fast in semi with the added benefit of getting that flash sight picture after each shot. Just one shooter's opinion though.