Question for you fans of the holy black

[Arkansas Paul]

Hey guys.

My supervisor came to me with a question today regarding black powder. Her husband shoots cowboy matches and loads his .45 Colts and 10-gauge exclusively with black powder. She and her father in law are wanting to go in halves and buy him 10 pounds of black for Christmas.

She knows I'm a gun guy and asked me to research it a little. I'm a smokeless guy myself and know very little about black powder, but knew that you guys could help.

Question 1. Is powderinc.com a good place to buy black? Have any of you guys used them and what was your experience ordering from them.

If not, who would you recommend as an online vendor?

Qestion 2. What is the cleanest burning black powder. She only knows that the powder he buys is in a black plastic 1 pound jug (I know that doesn't tell you a helluva lot).

He said that he got a good deal on some black one time and it was dirty and cleaning was a PITA so he didn't like it too much. So, what are the cleaner burning ones?

I appreciate it guys.

 

[rodwha]

If I'm not mistaken powderinc sells a minimum of 25 lbs.

I've bought from Grafs a few times and think they have good service and quick shipping.

For cleaner powders there's Olde Eynsford by Goex, which is a top notch powder created to compete with Swiss powder, but is much cheaper in comparison. These are the 2 powders I've read are considered the cleanest of true BP's. I've used Olde E and love it!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Thank you sir for the suggestions.

And actually, powderinc sells in as small as 5 pound lots.
I did find a site called track of the wolf that has 25 pound minimum order.

 

[vagunmonkey]

Powder Inc. is great to deal with. I have ordered several times from them and have been very pleased.

 

[72coupe]

Graf and Sons have a good selection and good prices when its on sale.

 

[Fingers McGee]

1. Powder Inc. or Graf & Sons are good sources.

2. Olde Eynsford and Scheutzen (or Grafs), are relatively clean burning. Swiss costs too much IMNSHO

 

[EljaySL]

I'm a big fan of Swiss powder but I don't go through the volume a lot of these guys do so the cost isn't a huge issue. Goex is perfectly usable though and the usual powder you find when you can find real black, so I'm sure he'd be fine with it.

 

[Don McDowell]

Powder Inc. is the best place to get powder. They ship in 5,10,25 and 50 lb lots, you can mix or match brands and "F" sizes in any order you place.
Grafs is good but a little higher.

Olde Eynsford is cleaner and cheaper than Swiss. She'll want to order 2f for her shooter guy.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I go in with a friend on 25 pounds of powder from Maine Powder House every year or so.

http://mainepowderhouse.com/

As for the cleanest burning, Swiss is the cleanest burning in my experience. It is also the most expensive. Swiss uses Buckthorn Alder charcoal in their powder, that is the main reason it is so clean burning. For the amount of powder we go through in CAS in a year, it is not worth it to buy Swiss. We don't need the pinpoint accuracy you can get with Swiss.

I usually buy Schuetzen. Schuetzen uses the same type of charcoal that Swiss does, but it is not as expensive. Schuetzen is about the same price as Goex, but it burns cleaner. The powder that Graff sells under their own label is actually Schuetzen.

 

[Don McDowell]

Well that's the great thing about Olde Eysnford, 25.50 in 5lb.lots. 16$ by the case from Powder Inc.
Cleaner, just as fast and just as accurate as Swiss. To bad more folks won't at least try it.
Keep in mind if you look at Powder Inc.'s site, the price's are delivered.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

AVOID DIAMONDBACK... as it's very dirty, and is the same stuff as the now defunct Elephant brand. I suspect that was what he used in the past and was not happy. I bought some for blanks for a reenactment unit as it was the least expensive at the time... but now you can get "reenactment" powder from GOEX at the same price, and regular GOEX can be found at about a dollar or two more per can. (When we bought the Diamondback the difference between 1 pound cans was $5)

I have used GOEX 2Fg for shotshells in CAS and GOEX 3Fg for .45 Colt and .45 Schofield cartrdiges. Cleanup was as simple as my muzzleloaders.

Hey remember this....if you get stuff he doesn't like... he will always be able to find somebody who WILL like it, maybe for a different part of the Black Powder Hobby...who will want to take it off his hands...and he can then get what he wants.

LD

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Thanks a lot guys.
I found out that the brand he tried and didn't like is Kik. He said it was terrible.
He shoots Goex and Schuetzen both and is pleased with both.

Also, we found out that the store is actually located in Clarksville AR, about an hour and a half down the road. His father has to pass right through in a couple of weeks and is going to stop by. The powder is $19.06/lb shipped so they may get a really good price on it going into the place.

 

[Don McDowell]

Yeh it changes some when Jerry sells over the counter, because then the sales tax kicks in. I have a friend that comes up from Mississippi every fall, and his route takes him thru Clarksville, so if I want something like a 25 lb bag of powder that can't be shipped, then he can stop and pick it up, but the sales tax sort of kills some of the savings.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

The $19.05 price per pound, online from Jerry at Powder, Inc, is based on buying a minimum 10 lb case, and the HazMat & shipping is built into the price per pound.

If one purchases a 25 lb case, the price, including H/M & shipping, drops the price per pound down to $15.40.

My last invoice from September indicates GOEX cost $12.90 & Swiss costs $20.10. Those prices do NOT include shipping & HazMat charges, @$125.00, combined for a 50 lb shipment (2 ea/25 lb cases).

Bear in mind, those prices are based on buying a minimum 25 lb case.

The more you buy, the less per pound it cost for the powder. So conversely, the less you buy, the more it cost per pound.

Buying one or two pounds in the store might be a little higher than $19.05.

Best to call and find out what the sticker shock will be; 877-833-1799.

Just sayin'

 

[Palehorseman]

Howdy

I go in with a friend on 25 pounds of powder from Maine Powder House every year or so.

http://mainepowderhouse.com/

As for the cleanest burning, Swiss is the cleanest burning in my experience. It is also the most expensive. Swiss uses Buckthorn Alder charcoal in their powder, that is the main reason it is so clean burning. For the amount of powder we go through in CAS in a year, it is not worth it to buy Swiss. We don't need the pinpoint accuracy you can get with Swiss.

I usually buy Schuetzen. Schuetzen uses the same type of charcoal that Swiss does, but it is not as expensive. Schuetzen is about the same price as Goex, but it burns cleaner. The powder that Graff sells under their own label is actually Schuetzen.

Just repeating what you stated.

Graf's brand of black powder is exactly the same as Schuetzen, made in the same factory and only difference is the label on the container and Graf's is much cheaper..

 

[rodwha]

What's the difference between Swiss and Schuetzen? I've never read that it performs the same (vol to vol).

 

[Trek]

Hi Rodwa,
I bought a can of Graf's black powder, and it says right on the can that it is made in Germany by Schuetzen. Judging by the name, I would think that Swiss powder is made in Switzerland? At any rate, they are entirely different powders. If you want a good comparison of the differences in the burning characteristics of these two powders (along with others) you may remember Richard's posts over on the 1858Remington.com forum:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6410.0.html

That thread was started over a year ago, so you may have forgotten about it.

 

[Trek]

Oh, and no, these two powders do not perform the same. You may have been thinking about Old Eynsford instead of Schuetzen. In Richard's test, Graf's powder gave an average velocity of 672 FPS, whereas the Swiss produced an average of about 920 FPS. The Swiss powder also burned cleaner.

 

[rodwha]

I asked because of this statement:

"Schuetzen uses the same type of charcoal that Swiss does..."

My understanding, however limited, is that the charcoal is what seems to be the deciding factor on how energetic it is. No doubt there's more to it than that in that there's a ratio of charcoal to other ingredients, and maybe in the processing of the charcoal itself, but if the charcoal id a very important part I'd think Shuetzen would be head and shoulders above standard Goex or the others.

The performance I often see listed from loads using standard Goex are quite weak, which is why I'm only interested in Olde E and Triple 7 (and Swiss, but if Olde E can do every bit as well why pay more?). But if Shuetzen gives a velocity in-between standard Goex and Olde E I might buy a can just to try it as Grafs (my usually powder source) sells it a little cheaper than Olde E.

 

[g.willikers]

Gotta' ask,
With the hassles of shipping and finding genuine BP, and the availability, clean burning, and good performance of the substitutes, what is the attraction of using BP?
I switched to 777 years ago, out of desperation, and have never been tempted to go back to BP ever since.

 

[rodwha]

For me it was to see what real BP was like. Now I see that it's cheaper when I buy 3 lbs, and I didn't have to drive anywhere, especially if it's out of stock, which I've had happen before. But I have to buy 3 lbs for it to be worthwhile.

In some ways I prefer Triple 7 to Olde Eynsford. But I read that Triple 7 looses it's power over time once opened (a year?) whereas BP doesn't. And if BP gets wet it can be dried with no issues. I'm not sure about T7...

T7 is the only substitute I'm interested in as I want something with power, and I use 3F that I can use in all of my arms. Pyrodex is horrible and I'll never use it again unless I'm breaking in a new rifle as I still have some left over from my dad. The others are just too weak except for BH 209, but then I can't set it off with a percussion cap without a starter charge. And the cost of BH 209 is astronomical! I am curious though...

 

[g.willikers]

Where did you read that Triple 7 loses power over time?
Must have been from the competition.
My one lb bottle has been around for much longer than a year.
More like five years, at least, and no detectible change so far.
Gotta' get out more.

 

[EljaySL]

The losing power thing is something you hear, more for pyrodex than 777 I think, but I don't know that anybody's every really shown chrono data or whatever.

Real BP has a lower ignition point. This means a) you can use it in flintlocks and b) it's more reliable in guns that have something of a roundabout ignition path. The cleaning thing is really a non-issue - you have to do the same steps in any case. And if you're buying in bulk online BP's actually cheaper and just as easy to get.

BP produces about twice the smoke. That might be a pro or con. It smells like sulphur. That might be a pro or con. I'm somewhat sulphur sensitive and I don't like it when I catch a whif, makes me a bit ill. Other people reading this are thinking I'm crazy because it's their favorite smell ever.

If you're an occasional user and you're shooting cap and ball revolvers and you don't know how to keep them lubed so they'll keep running with real BP by all means pick up some 777.

I use it myself, because of the sulfur thing, and because I bought a bunch of it when I first got started. I use real BP in the flintlocks. I have a rifle that'll only ignite 777 if I use the "magnum" caps and sometimes I'll just 777 and sometimes BP.

 

[rodwha]

I've read that T7 loses strength from other shooters on these forums. I've even read of a guy who throws away his leftover each year because he doesn't want a dud come hunting season. I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion, but I've read it enough that it makes me wonder.

And some fellas on a Yahoo group, having heard this too, had come up with the idea of dropping desiccant packs into the opened jar. I did so as well as it certainly cannot hurt.

I've been using it for about 3 years and like it, though it's never lasted longer than a year!

 

[EljaySL]

Definitely can't hurt. Personally I go through it at a reasonable clip so I've never really worried about it. I roughed out some numbers just now and I just calculated 5 pounds/year which seems too high frankly but maybe it's true. You can blow through a lot of powder if you're shooting the larger calibers, that's for sure.