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Question-Important..

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL, Apr 5, 2011.

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  1. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    10 pounds of Potassium Nitrate, 10 pounds of Flour Sulfur, and 10 pounds of Charcoal Airfloat...How much black powder will this make? Have 4 Indian families here in Wyoming and they all lost their jobs. They'd rather die than beg for food or money from the government. They will be doing a lot of hunting. They have enough money to pay for the ingredients and they have plenty of lead and sabots..Can someone help me here so I can pass the word on to them? Thank you and they thank you to....PS. I KNOW THE MEASUREMENTS ARE NOT EQUAL AND ALL, BUT THE MOST I HAVE EVER MADE AT A TIME IS ABOUT 5 OUNCES AND THAT'S MIGHTY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN....
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  2. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Not only is Black Powder measured by volume, it is mixed by volume.
    Give us a relative volume of each component...

    But a rough formula for ratio is
    15 parts by weight of Potassium Nitrate
    3 Parts by weight of Charcoal
    2 Parts by weight of Sulfur

    so basically 13 lbs 5 ounces of powder, you'll have 8 pounds of Charcoal and 8 5/8 pounds of Sulfur left.

    How are they going to mix it? Serpentine powder is not very powerful, and Corn style is still not as powerful as what you get from a real mill. Wet mixing is best but then you have to mill it. I don't say this lightly, but "you'll put your eye out kid..." You'd be better of buying them 13 pounds of Diamond back powder form Powder Inc. You'll have to order 25 pounds at $11/lb delivered, keep the balance or sell it to your local shooters to cover a portion of your costs.



    ~Mako
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  3. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Sir, I guess I can figure it out pretty close. I know the measurements for anywhere from 2 to 5 ounces. I just thought someone on here who make's it and shoot's it all the time could just sort of rattle off from the top of their head so to speak. At least somewhere in the ball park. Thank you....
     
  4. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    They have ball mills and some good framed screens. They have a small supply they pooled together on but no money to spare for any more chemicals. They are reasonably well experienced. I was trying to figure it out because I know they're real good people and I wanted to help them. I just passed word to them that I will give them 6 pounds of Triple Seven 3fff. If they smoke that much up before they find some work then I'll get them some nitrate and sulfur. They can make their own charcoal..Thank you....
     
  5. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Look at my post #2
     
  6. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    I did. But still, when you're sitting here bone tired and cold to the bone and the beginning of saddle sores on your ass it's kind of hard and frustrating to work your measurements through 10 pounds of each..Again, thank you sir..
     
  7. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    If they live in an area where one can find Elk Antlers laying around, they can cut those up and or leave some whole, and, sell them on e-bay and Gunbroker for Knife Makers and Pistol Stock Makers and whoever else needs them, especially if they ask a reasonable price.

    Far as having some diversified 'skills' or willingness to hustle a little, for having some Cash income if in a rural area.

    Other things too...

    What part of the Country is this G of the CC?
     
  8. Bluehawk

    Bluehawk Member

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    GOC...
    with 10 pounds of Nitrate you can make 13 pounds of BP:

    Pot. Nitrate 9.75 lbs
    Sulfur: 1.30 lbs.
    Charcoal 1.95 lbs.

    hope that helps (you can actually make 13.3 pounds but I figured it to the nearest pound)
     
  9. Bluehawk

    Bluehawk Member

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    If you want to produce really good, consistently reproducible BP for firearms, you weigh it...not mix by volume.
     
  10. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Bluehawk,
    Did you read what I said in post #2? I already said there it would produce 13 lbs and 5 ounces of BP and I gave the ratios necessary to make that amount.

    And at the mills the powder is mixed by volume, the volume is determined by initial weighing. Then each of the components are processed to the appropriate screen size and the put into the volume hoppers and dispensed by volume. There are variations primarily in the density of the charcoal which varies the weight, but the volume is not changed. I know this because I used to direct a munitions division, we used a LOT of BP as the bursting charge for our fusing.
    Regards,
    Mako
     
  11. Bluehawk

    Bluehawk Member

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    Mako
    I did read what you wrote in #2 but that didn't give GOC what he truly needed. Ratios are fine but the exact weights are much better...easier to understand.
    By your own admission you weigh the components first...mixing by volume is not an important criteria.
    I've been a pyrotechnic for over 20 years and never do anything by volume.
     
  12. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    I just think it's damned cool that there are folks with this sort of ethos. Of course, they'd be native Americans. :D I think even in Texas, at least in incorporated areas, the white folks, this sort of spirit is all, but lost.
     
  13. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Okay, been checking around very thoroughly. Now, I have a good stockpile of my own supplies (buried) which I don't want to get into..Now, I have checked with several pyrotechnic people and with a few chemical supply houses including the one I trade with. They have ALL assured me that if I buy the HARDWOOD charcoal that it will work fine for use in blackpowder. They told me to stay away from all other brands such as 'quick start' and 'match light' and whatnot because those brands have other chemicals in them, but that plain hardwood charcoal would work just fine..I would like to have some of ya'll's opinion and knowledge on this if you would be kind enough to give it to me...A couple of the men found work on a ranch. I'm glad about that and know they are to....I'll be waiting here for an answer from ya'll..Thank You....
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  14. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Thank you BlueHawk..Appreciate it. I mean it to sir. Not just paying lip service. THANK YOU....
     
  15. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    They don't need a hunting permit or a hunting season because they are native americans correct? I would think that also means they don't need to obey the rules on daily limits and methods of harvesting. I would consider traps of various sorts.

    Something to think about.
     
  16. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    That's true and natural hardwood lump charcoal would be much better than briquettes because it's pure charcoal of various types of wood, and it doesn't contain any clay, binders or chemicals. Its compatibility with making black powder is mentioned in the following article several times.

    This is what a bag of it looks like:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  17. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Articap..THANK YOU SIR. Again, not just paying lip service. When I say 'thank you' I mean it. I'll be going into town in a few days. I'll pick up a couple of large bags of it and drop it off to them. I think they're going to be just fine. I sure think a lot of them and I know they think a lot of me. There is not a member of the 4 families including the children that I don't just love to death..Good people, real good people..Thank you....
     
  18. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I hope that you can find the right stuff. Just remember no briquettes.
    And buy an extra bag to barbecue with, that stuff burns good & hot! :)
     
  19. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Articap, will do..Do you think Wal-Marts would carry it? Maybe Safeway or True Value or maybe Ace?..Does it have to be the 'Cowboy' brand or are there other brands out there that will work just as good?....
     
  20. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  21. shunka

    shunka Member

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    My Dear GOTC -

    if you go here, there isa a very long thread discussing the hiome manufaturing of the product in question. You will need to sift out all the "you'll blow your head off" nonsense as well as all the "that ain't legal" BS but there is some excellent info on making fine powder.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103852

    good luck, god bless you & your friends

    aho mitakuye oyasin
     
  22. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Thank you Shunka..Went into town today. I'm retired (trying to be) so I just get my 2 checks once a month so it almost broke me but I picked up 5 large bags of 100% all natural lump charcoal. Dropped off 4 bags to them and kept one for myself.....
     
  23. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    What kind of charcoal did you buy? There is a significant difference between wood types. The majority of charcoals you're going to get for cooking will be oak or mesquite which are exactly the opposite of what you need.

    Charcoals all have energy values. The secret that is never spoken is that it all really relates to density. Cellulose really only differs in the sugar, water content and the amount of porosity.

    This is where it gets interesting, anyone who is more than an amateur pyro-technician (I love what that entails) will tell you that BP is all about the charcoal. That is assuming the corning, granulation and water content are held constant.

    Let me show you a couple of things. This is the densities of two charcoals good for BP and three common fuel charcoals. Note that the densities for "lump" charcoal as you are calling it is very low. The second column is for the milled charcoal. It has been rendered to the powder form necessary for creating BP.

    charcoals.jpg

    Quite a range isn't there?

    Now break that into a chart including Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur and we will be using the units for density of grams /cubic centimeter because all of the records I have are in those units.

    Densities.jpg

    In this case note that this is for milled KNO3 and Sulfur. It is the opposite of charcoal, it starts out much denser and is "fluffed" up by the milling.

    Then a pressed cake is formed which will have a density ranging between 1.4 to 1.8 g/cm3 depending upon the charcoal type. After it goes through a breaking mill, the ball milling and barreling the densities will translate to this:

    WeightsandVolumes.jpg

    Notice that if you use weight for the 75/15/10 ratios you end up with a 254 grain difference in 1 pounds of yielded powder? Charcoals are different, and different manufacturers uses different charcoals and they yield different energy factors. You've probably seen chronograph from different powders and they vary.

    The secret is the powder density. Lighter woods are better, porosity in the charcoal is better. and here is the real dirty secret...It's volume. If you mix by volume and abandon the 75/15/10 weight ratios you can get similar energy factors with different charcoals. The denser charcoals have lower energy factors but if you mix them by volume then you can regain some of the difference because you have added fuel to the mixture. Otherwise you have too much oxidizer and too little fuel by volume. Guess what? Combustion is volume driven.

    Bet your amateur pyro-techs didn't tell you that did they? Commercial mills that are producing based on gas and energy generation tests vary their mixtures to yield consistent results with similar volumes. 75/15/10 is just a starting point. But if you track the mixtures a trend shows up and it is volume driven.

    Well back to your bags of charcoal...What did you get and how will they mill it the required density?

    Regards,
    Mako
     
  24. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Good morning Mako. Thank you for the charts. I have saved them. The charcoal is natural hardwoods. I don't know exactly how they will grind it. Probably in a ball mill. I know they have a couple of mills. (not big ones but high quality). I know they pretty well alway's make their own powder except for one of the women and a couple of the children and they use .22's....
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011
  25. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    The article also recommends precisely measuring the ingredients by weight.

     
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