Black vs Pyrodex vs Triple Se7en?

[Joshua M. Smith]

Hello,

I'm sitting here reading all these arguments on the 'net about real black powder vs subs. So I went and looked at the actual ingredients, and here's what I found:

Black powder is charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate (but we knew that).

Pyrodex is charcoal, sulfur, sodium nitrate, and potassium nitrate, with potassium perchlorate added.

Triple Se7en is charcoal, potassium nitrate, and potassium perchlorate (Pyrodex without the sulfur).

So it's basically the same stuff. Pyrodex contains an additional oxidizer, as does Triple Se7en, and the latter doesn't have sulfur. All contain a bit of graphite, likely to help flow, as most smokeless powders meant for reloading have it also.

Can't find the MSDS on Shockey's Gold. I wonder if they're embarrassed to put it out there? It is extremely inconsistent and pretty good at making noise, but that's about it. Regardless, we know it's based on ascorbic acid, and probably has an oxidizer and binder in there too. But we'll leave it out of this because it's just not much good.

So why the arguments? The Big 3 - Black, Pyrodex, and Triple Se7en powders - all share most of the same ingredients. Additionally, "real" black powder has historically contained less than the optimum amount of oxidizer at times (early pioneers would often urinate on it and let it dry as a chemical in urine is an oxidizer - they didn't know why it worked, but it did). Too, substitutions were made, for example, sodium nitrate would be used in place of potassium nitrate at times when the latter was scarce.

True black has been more than one thing with more than one mixture - and in my mind, Pyrodex, if not Triple Se7en, would be close enough to the various mixtures to qualify as "true black" at one point or another in history.

And I do have one related question as well: Potassium chlorate is a salt. IIRC, it's the same stuff given off by "corrosive" primers when they're fired. It's the salts which attract moisture and induce oxidization in barrels.

How are these barrels safe? Doesn't seem they would be... unless the charcoal absorbs the moisture and holds it there.

So the two questions are these:

Why the arguments

and

how does a charged barrel not rust?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[mykeal]

Just what arguments are you talking about? I think you're imagining some 'controversy' where none exists. Show me a thread anywhere in the first 5 pages of THR black powder threads where people are 'arguing' about Pyrodex and black powder.

Some people like Fords and others like Chevys, and a few even like Chryslers. So what?

 

[JohnD13]

I'll add one thing to this-Pyrodex and Triple Seven don't do well in flintlocks. Black powder of the proper granulation does. And I mostly shoot flinters.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Links to the threads with the arguments would aid us giving a helpful, concise answer.

For the one specific question: "how does a charged barrel not rust?" The firing chamber area of a muzzleloader (the area near the breech where the charge resides) will always show some erosion or corrosion effect. It takes a lot of corrosion to make a half inch of iron or steel unsafe. A muzzleloader should be conditioned or "seasoned" like a frying pan or wok while warm and dry with oil from animal fat or vegetable oil or beeswax or a substance like Bore Butter, until it naturally retains oil in the cracks or pores of the metal, and resists corrosion. A muzzleloader charge is sealed at the muzzle end by a patch or sabot containing the bullet, and a caplock with a cap in place or a flintlock with the frizzen down on the flashpan will not allow much moisture to enter from the breech end. In older days muzzleloaders were kept ready on the mantelpiece or on pegs over the door and there are reports of Civil War era rifles being found today with live charges, but the barrels are not dangerously rusted from the powder.

Multiple open ended question though can lead to open ended answers, like this:

I have read and heard at the range and in the field a lot of general discussion about BP versus BP substitutes. I have owned and shot muzzleloading rifles and cap'n'ball revolvers relatively casually since the 1970s and did take first place in the club's BP cartridge matches for Mar-Oct 2003, so I am a semi-informed amatuer diletante in BP.

Pyrodex and Triple7 include trade secret ingredients beyond those listed. Both use carbon as a fuel, Pyrodex uses charcoal and Triple 7 uses a sugar; Pyrodex like BP uses Sulphur as a binder and to promote ignition. Triple 7 does not use sulphur. Potassium chlorate is a compound that produces corrosive chloride salts when burned either as a priming mixture in corrosive primers or as an oxidizer in BP substitutes.

Generally, my experience has been that black powder is easier to fire with primers, caps or sparks. Pyrodex and Triple7 work well in rifles, but require more intense ignition than BP. Residue from BP tends to be harder, but all three require intense cleaning of the gun within hours of use, then intense cleaning three days later, repeat a week later. All will cause rust, but cleanup with Triple7 seems to be a little easier.

Blackpowder is a stable mixture of Sulphur (S), Charcoal (C) and Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) proven to keep well for a long time; blackpowder made 150 years ago (loaded Civil War rifles and explosive cannon shells) will fire today. Wet BP can be dried and used; to prevent explosions at the factory, for centuries BP has been ground wet (in the old days with urine) then dried and crushed to granularity and sieved to size (Fg coarse to FFFFg fine). BP with Sodium Nitrate I have always heard called Blasting Powder and not recommended for use in guns.

Pyrodex is formulated to match the power of BP by volume (2.0cc of Pyrodex P (pistol) = 2.0cc of BP FFFg) but Triple7 is a bit more powderful than an equal volume of BP or Pyrodex. Always read the loading instructions from the manufacturer. Pyrdoex by weight is more powerful than BP, but 70gr of Pyrodex measured by scale is noticably more volume than 70gr of FFg, and if you dropped it in a .45-70 case you would hopefully notice the difference. For instance, using a 4.00cc measure you get ~49.3gr Pyrodex RS or 58.8gr of BP FFg, which should give the same powder but 58.8gr of Pyrodex RS would be an overload. Since muzzeloaders using loose powder are usually loaded with volumetric measures, that is only a problem if you start loading cartridges using a scale. (There is or was a special cartridge grade Pyrodex for folks loading cartridges by weight.)

To me, Pyrodex and Triple7 are an unknown quantity for long term storage. I have been told that if the can is opened, and the BP substitute has drawn enough humidity to clump, it cannot be dried and used, but should be burned off in the open. Triple 7 burns hotter than BP or Pyrodex, generates more pressure than BP or Pyrodex. Triple 7 appears to work better in cartridges than Pyrodex. My experience has been that Triple 7 does not burn well if crushed by seating the bullet, while Pyrodex RS can take a little compression.

From disposing of post-Halloween pumpkins with smoke bombs, first using BP and last year trying Pyrodex or Triple7, I have found that outside a gun barrel, BP acts like an explosive with minimal containment but outside a gun barrel Pyrodex and Triple7 tend to burn or poof (like smokeless powder does) rather than explode. That is why Pyrodex and Triple7 can be sold in the sporting goods dept. at Walmart, but BP requires special storage and business licensing.

For an old brass frame revolver with excess cylinder gap, BP substitutes will not build up as much pressure as BP, and BP may be required in a revolver just to get the ball out of the barrel. And the spark of a flintlock will ignite FFFFg BP reliably, but will not reliably ignite a BP substitute.

 

[frontiergander]

i have no problem shooting american pioneer, some of my best groups were with that powder.

 

[Yarddog]

I'm Still on my last LB of Pyrodex with price tag $9.95 & No clumping what so ever ; )
Y/D

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Thank you for the information.

I'm going to try to get my hands on true black, but for now I had to go with Pyrodex just to get away from that Shockey's Gold stuff that came with the muzzleloader.

I did see I made a typo: Pyrodex contains POTASSIUM NITRATE as well; I put sodium nitrate.

I was thinking ahead to a future paragraph where I would address the sodium nitrate thing in old black.

Sorry for the confusion.

Thank you, again, for the info!

Josh

 

[OYE]

I use Pyrodex Pistol extensively in revolvers as I get good performance from it ( about
equal to Swiss BP ) and it's much cheaper in this area. If I could get Swiss BP at a reasonable price, I would certainly use some of it. I don't have much interest in the lesser grades of BP.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Hello,

Just got back in from shooting Pyrodex and cleaning the rifle just like I do my C&R firearms.

First, this is how I cleaned it:

1. Soapy water. I used to pour boiling water down the barrel, but I found that this does the trick just as well - or perhaps a bit better - if the patches are wrapped around a bronze brush and totally saturated. I did this two or three times.

2. Rinsed it out in the same manner, using regular hot water.

3. Ran some dry patches down the bore to dry it out, and did the same with the nipple and drum.

4. Applied lanolin. This has become a favorite of mine for bore conditioning, water repelling, and getting past rust.

5. Ran a dry patch down the barrel to get rid of the excess lanolin.

I've never had a firearm thus treated rust.

Observations:

First, this rifle LOVES Pyrodex and round balls. I was shooting at 30 yards or so working up loads for squirrel. It shot pretty much at the same place with 30gns to 90gns (the highest I tried) at that range. Twenty grains dropped the ball quickly, but was still good to 30yds.

Offhand groups were pretty much one hole with the same charge. Hate to say it, but I shoot this rifle more instinctively and just better from a non-rested standing position than any of my modern rifles. I will have to shoot for 50yd groups again - I bet they come in near 1/2".

I LOVE the smell of Pyrodex - which I'm guessing is real similar to the smell of true black.

I did have a spent cap land on my right hand - it's a downside of being a lefty shooting a righty lock I guess - and it seared the skin pretty good. Probably will scar. I'll wear it with pride

I have six balls left. A gent from another board is sending me a .490" T/C round ball mould. That will be real nice to have as I cast for my .45acp and do have some pure lead ingots. Got to thinking that it would take me about an hour to shoot up those remaining six balls though - while I could do 200 round of aimed .22LR with my "squirrel sniper" heavy barreled Savage MkII in about the same time.

I don't care about price per shot; if I shoot right, I won't be able to use ammo up near as fast!

The Pyrodex just makes me hungry to try true black. If this rifle can shoot this much better with Pyrodex than with that Shockey's Gold stuff, I wonder if it would do even better with true FFg..?

Hmmm...

Josh