Question on 1911 and Hi-Power Mags

[Pinned&Recessed]

What is the deal with +1 or +2 mags for 1911s and Hi-Powers?

I thought the standard capacity for a 1911 is 7, but I see 8-round mags that are still flush with the base of the grip. What do they do? Trim the spring, different follower, what?

Similarly, what do they do to get 15-round Hi-Power mags? I thought standard cap for a BHP is 13 rounds, but I see 15-rounders for sale all the time. Is it the same deal as the +1 1911 mags?

Also, what's the deal on loading a full 13 rounds in a Hi-Power mag? Ayoob says not to as it'll not feed properly if left loaded like that for a while. So what's the solution if you want 13+1 in your Hi-Power? Carry a 15-rounder downloaded by 2 or what?

 

[BHPshooter]

I'm not sure about the 1911 magazines. I don't own a 1911, so it's all black magic to me.

As for the Hi Power, the 15-round magazines have a different follower, and usually don't have the "pinches" at the bottom of the mag body. As far as I know, they use a different method to get the +1 in the 1911 mags.

Massad Ayoob is full of crap concerning the Hi Power. You can keep a 13-rounder chock-full all day, every day. I have never had a problem, and neither has anyone I've talked to. The opposite is usually true with 17-rounders -- the spring is so strong when they are new, that with 17 rounds in the mag, the top round occasionally doesn't want to strip. I have only had this happen once, now they don't do it anymore. (EDIT: What I mean with the 17-rounders is that they usually need a break in period for the spring to weaken.)

Weak magazine springs are not a common problem with BHPs, no matter what the "writers" say.

Wes

 

[Zak Smith]

I have used the Mec-Gar 15-round BHP mags. They come with a different follower than the factory 10 or 13-round magazines, however, to fix premature slide-lock, I have substituted factory 10rnd followers into the MecGar 15's with great success. The gun runs fine with 15+1.

-z

 

[1911Tuner]

Mags

Pinned&Recessed asked:

What do they do? Trim the spring, different follower, what?

Bingo.

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

Ok, then that leads to the question of:

How does a 8-round 1911 mag feed as reliably as a 7-rounder? I know that clipping a coil or two off of a spring affects it's tension and (spring) weight, which I assume would affect feeding as the mag got close to empty. It would run out of poop to push the next round up and you would get a bolt-over FTF when the slide couldn't grab the rim, I would imagine.

Also, if it's a simple follower change without modifying the spring, how come JMB didn't design it from the outset to fit 8 rounds in the mag?

 

[1911Tuner]

Clipped

P&R asked:

How does a 8-round 1911 mag feed as reliably as a 7-rounder?

As a rule, they don't. A heavier magazine spring...such as the ones
made by Wolff help a lot...but across the board, the 8-rounders aren't as
reliable. They do well in some guns, not so well in others, and as the
springs start to fatigue, they start to exhibit feeding problems, usually on the last round. Double-stack magazines aren't as prone to this as single-
stacks because they are only lifting half the cartridge diameter to the
feeding position, and thus has more leeway on the magazine timing.


And:

Also, if it's a simple follower change without modifying the spring, how come JMB didn't design it from the outset to fit 8 rounds in the mag?

Well, partly because the US Army requested a 7-round pistol, and
probably because Browning realized that the geometry wasn't conducive
to reliability with anything over 7 rounds with the space available. This
is speculation, of course...but John Moses was a pretty sharp "guesser"
on his designs, and had an instinct as to what would work and what wouldn't. How do I figger that he was that intuitive? Easy. He designed
these things without the aid of modern metallurgical testing equipment,
stop-action, slow-motion video cameras, and with an understanding that
his pistols would be assembled en masse by semi-skilled or even unskilled
hands with only a Mastersmith or two to oversee the production line.
With all this, he was able to figure tolerances that would allow it to work.
No CNC machinery...No digital readout sensitive machinery...and no way
of knowing what conditions that his pistol would be subjected to in the course of an assignment into horrible places.

My way of thinking: The 8-round magazine is an example of so many
people trying to outsmart Browning for so long, that they really think they have.

A guy on the Pistolsmith forum summed it up nicely:

An 8-round magazine in a 1911 is like the .243 for deer hunting. Sooner or later, it will do less than you need for it to do when you least expect it."

I've found this to be very true.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[stans]

1911Tuner pretty well nailed it. My experience with 8 round 1911 mags has been mixed. Mine are from Metalform and are pretty good in terms of quality. The follower is a standard flat steel follower with a little bump on it, much like military mags, but the leg of the follower is cut shorter than a 7 round follower. The springs are different too, the wire is thinner than military 7 round springs, this allows for sufficient spring tension to feed the last round while preventing the coils from binding when fully loaded. These mags worked well out of the box, but as the springs began to wear, the first round tended to nose dive into the frame feed ramp and the last round did not want to feed smoothly.

If my life depended upon one of my 1911's, it would have a 7 round magazine in it. Even some old World War II military magazines that I have still function 100%.

 

[happyguy]

Perhaps someone should manufacture a "Tactical" magazine that is about 1/3 inch longer than standard and put a plastic floorplate on it so it looks sort of like a Wilson or CMC Powermag. Maybe the floorplate would even extend up the side of that extra 1/3 inch. That might give you enough room to have enough follower and spring.

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[BluesBear]

Happy Guy, Mec-Gar does just that.

They make an 8 rounder with a slightly extended tube. It has a floorplate reminiscent of the Walther PPK finger rest magazines. The floorplate hides the slight extra length. It used the same follower as their 7 rounders while their standard length 8 rounders use a McCormick style follower.

 

[444]

Very interesting.
My primary 1911 mags are 8 rounders (Wilson). And, in the past I have had a variety of other eight rounders and even some 10 rounders when I was into the action pistol shooting games. I never had any problem with them at all, but maybe they wern't worn enough to exhibit problems. On the other hand, I would think that any magazine would start to have problems when it is excessivly worn. But, it is something to keep in mind. Hopefully I will shoot my current 8 rounders enough to find out. I ran close to 1500 rounds through them in the last week and a half and intend to go out this afternoon for more.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mec-Gar

BluesBear said:

length. It used the same follower as their 7 rounders while their standard length 8 rounders use a McCormick style follower.

And there's the other problem with the Devel-type follower, and it's the same problem that Mec-gars have. No dimple.

Browning the Great put that silly thing on the follower for a very good reason. Removing it compromises last round feed reliability. I'll post
a rather lengthy explanation if ya'll want.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Poohgyrr]

On Hi Powers, I haven't had any problems with current pistols and mags at all. Folks with quite a bit more experience than me say there may be feeding problems with the humped feedramps of the older style barrels, but this is easily fixed. You might take a look at the FAQ section of www.hipowersandhandguns.com for more info.

 

[BluesBear]

I understand the principle of the dimple on the follower. I have had very very few problems with Colt/GI followers. I also have has almost zero problems with the old Pachmayr style round followers and the Mec-Gar style shown in the photo above.

As for the McCormick style followers I have has mixed results with them. Either they work great or they suck dirty ditch water.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Dimple

I understand the principle of the dimple on the follower. I have had very very few problems with Colt/GI followers. I also have has almost zero problems with the old Pachmayr style round followers and the Mec-Gar style shown in the photo above.

Howdy,

Are you sure that the no-dimple follower is allowing a true controlled feed
on every round? The dimple is there to keep the last round from sliding
forward under inertia during recoil. If it gets ahead of where it's supposed to be, the round gets knocked ahead of the extractor and forces the hook to climb over the rim. Check your fired brass. Do you see small dings that
kick up burrs on the edge of the rim? If you do, the gun is push-feeding
and snapping the extractor hook over the rim. Bad medicine for the extractor if it goes on for long.

Just because the gun functions without a stoppage doesn't mean that it's
functioning correctly. That dimple is important. Removing it or usiing
followers that don't have one is affecting other things.

Some will do okay witout the dimple...others won't. A strong mag spring will help, but may not eliminate the push-feed entirely. When the spring
starts to fatigue, it will occur more frequently.

Cheers!

Tuner