Question on bead sights for sm

[Oldnamvet]

After reading your endorsement (numerous times) of the book by Bob Brister, Shotgunning, the Art and the Science, I decided to find a copy and read it. Being cheap I tried a variety of places and found one on ebay. I got it for $10 and found it was in excellent condition, hardbound, and even signed by the author. Anyway, after reading about half, I have to agree it is a book I should have read before I ever picked up a shotgun. But that was 50 years ago so before the book by quite a bit.
The question: This book emphasizes that shotguns are to be pointed instinctively rather than aimed. His initial training method is to practice with a BB gun with no sights. That is an instinctive method I learned in the Army back in the 60's and found it works well. So why do you not only have a bead to draw your attention but sometimes, on higher grade guns, there are even two? I won't even go into the huge multicolored worms that perch on the end of some barrels, glowing in the sun and distracting you from the birds. My father traded an old remington pump for a M-37. He immediately went from hitting everything to missing everything. A year later he traded for a Hi-Standard pump and filed the front sight nearly off. From then on, if he shot at it, it was going down. The glow worm sight on the front of that M-37 just got in the way.

 

[Will Fennell]

You would be surprised......

When you check out the gun racks @ major sporting clays tournaments, you would be surprised to find out how many truly top shooters have no beads on their ribs. I shoot a bit, and teach a bit, and have tried about everything out there looking for what works for me, and I have settled on a very small brass bead[the size of most mid beads] out on the end of my DT10 rib. Its there just to define the middle of the rib as I look over it.

If you are looking at[focusing on] your beads, you are not winning:banghead:

 

[TrapperReady]

My father traded an old remington pump for a M-37. He immediately went from hitting everything to missing everything. A year later he traded for a Hi-Standard pump and filed the front sight nearly off. From then on, if he shot at it, it was going down.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that the majority of the problem was the sight. According to your post, he had a gun that he shot very well, then traded it. With the new gun, he couldn't hit anything, so he traded that. With the third gun, he could hit the targets again.

That sounds more like a gun-fit issue to me. It's likely that the M37 just plain didn't fit like the others.

I shoot most of my guns with a factory bead, although the Model 12 I grouse hunt with has no bead at all and my Browning 425 currently sports a green fiber-optic tube. I have detailed my experiences with the fiber-optic bead in an older post. What I found was that there was little adjustment going from a standard bead to the "glow-worm". I found it to be helpful, but I can see how some might not like it.

 

[sm]

Will Fennell speaks true (always does).

Yes Brister took from Instinctive Training from the Army and used it in his book. The fact is, the human being is THE best computer there is. Besides eye and hand coordination, the brain is accessing and "computing" and various other things are going on like muscles twisting the body and so on.

Shotgun are "pointed" not "aimed" as most uses are for moving targets. Exceptions apply to stationary targets such as turkey and deer - still, critters do not always "stay put".

Mr. Will Fennel brought out a good point, I was taught as a kid to shoot without beads, or sights.

Recall many shotgunners at clay games "pre-mount" the gun. The bead acts as a reference on where the muzzle is in getting hold points, and to see if gun is "canted".
Using a mid bead is often used to better prevent the gun from canting by pre-mounted shooters.

I shoot from low gun, I don't need beads, been known to lose a bead and not even realize I had.

For ME and the versatitily of how I use a shotgun, I like mid beads. I use them to assist new shooters on that "canting" if pre-mounting the gun. There have been times I used my guns "aimed" at stationary targets.

Revealing to a student as to how important gun fit and getting the gun mounted to correctly each time is - line up the mid bead, front bead and shoot a pattern board. Now shoot again with the gun canted ever so slightly. Same gun, same load, same distance - and the patterns POA/POI is shifted.
Sometimes it is so great I let take a clay bird and compare ..."no wonder I miss".

Applicable to raising one's head and missing - "look up and see a miss". The head was not where it is supposed to be.

I have to make a concious effort to use them, either the front only , or one with mid beads. Distracting to ME are Hi-vis beads and such.

Brister, Mr.Fennel I bet, and I you have heard me harp about Gun Fit as do others around here.

The shotgun is an extension of one's self. The gun has to fit, one has to instill Correct Basic Fundamentals in mounting gun to face - and other factors - every time.

In a gun store one can shoulder a shotgun and "scrunch" around "to get the body to fit the gun". Not uncommon, happens all the time and folks "think" the gun fits them.

When a skeet target comes out at ~ 55mph, or a quail flushes , or a dove has its afterburners on- one cannot get all "scrunched" around that shotgun.

"Instinctive" - not sure that is the best term - still the idea is the gun fits the shooter, one has correct basics of mounting gun to face, and the pattern goes where looking ["pointed"]

The BB gun teaching method I have used forever for new shooters. With kids, I actually write "can't" on the ping pong balls - "can't" is not part of what we want to learn or instill. "Can" is what I want to instill and re-enforce.

"Can't" died and we "Can" fell it if we can see it.

At one time folks had one shotgun for everything, they learned gun fit and correct basic fundamentals. Even clay shooters often times used that one gun to shoot skeet/ trap and everything.

IMO - Marketing coupled with changing times have diminished the learning of correct basics and instead folks are attempting to buy skill and targets.

Learn on a bone stock gun that fits, learn from Brister's books or lessons from Folks like Mr. Fennel.

Then...if you attend a defensive shotgun class you are able to do administrative duties, safely handle a shotgun , follow instructions and so on.
Folks like Awerbuck can then make recommendations to YOU and YOUR needs in regard to sights, lights and slings.

IME - it is Hard to get a Rifle shooter to get the hang of shotguns due to "aiming". They are geared body and mind to aim - not point.

Shotgunners seem to transition better to "aiming" from having "pointed" so much.

Must be how the brain operates or somesuch.

I'm glad you got the book, and a signed copy at that!

My signed copy handed to me by Brister was destroyed, oh well life goes on.

Yep - Art & Science.


Steve

 

[Dave McCracken]

For those who may not know, Will Fennel has won a few FITASC tournaments in Europe and shoots SC in the Master Class in the US.

If I had money to spend on classes, I'd go to Carolina with Will on my mind.

In my quest these past few years to find out what works and what does not, I've tried big sights, little sights, Fiber optics and no sights at all.

Alert the media, scores stayed the same with all of them. I did note there were more solid hits one day with a green worm sight, but I could have just been having a good day.

 

[TrapperReady]

Dave - While I prefer the fiber-optic on my clays gun(s), the advantage I find is only maybe a couple birds out of 100. I can and do hit targets (and miss sometimes) with all different types, which is why I tend to think that the dramatic change in shooting which Oldnamvet describes was probably more due to gun fit.

BTW, I did a shoot this past weekend and won a new Hi-Viz Magna-Optic sight as a door prize. It's similar in function to the Uni-Dot, using a small tube to obscure the end of the light pipe from anything but a properly aligned position. Since my far better half is cross-eyed-dominant, I mounted the sight on her 682. We're going out to shoot a couple rounds tomorrow, so I'll let you know how it goes for her.

I think the important things are (in order):

* gun fit
* proper mounting technique and stance
* target focus
* lots of practice

Sights can be important, but mostly to help confirm fit and technique. After those are down cold and someone has practiced enough (with quality instruction if at all possible), then monkeying around with sights may be of benefit.

BTW, fiber-optic sights are very common on the guns I see people shooting at sporting clay events, even amongst the AA and Master shooters. People find what works for them (whatever it is) and use it to their advantage.

 

[Will Fennell]

Good advice all around.....

sm,
Great advice for aspiring clayshooters.....on point though, I rarely see "Bone Stock Guns" that truly fit thier owners. If afit is "Close", after you have shot a few hundered rounds"or more" to get familiar with the gun, have someone who knows gunfit take a critical look at the interface between the tool and the user. Afterall, I rarely see "Bone Stock" shooters

Dave,
I'm no expert, but I did stay @ a Holiday Inn Express on the way out to the US OPEN in Kansas a couple of weeks ago. I place fairly well in the FITASC event, and had 2 good days in the Main, but fell down a bit on Saturday, leaving me around 20th or so Good news is that Darby Jenkins, a student and GF, tied Diane Sorintino[ for my $$ the best Lady Clay SHooter in the USA, to 3 in the world] for High Lady in the FITASC[!]. Diane won the shootoff, but what a great showing for Darby.....she is certainly on the move up with visions of Ladies TEAM USA in here mind.

Trapper Ready,
Good list of important things for clayshooters, but consider moving target focus to the top of the list.......its by FAR the most important factor.

See ya'll on the range sometime....I'm heading out of town for awhile...be back in a week or so.

 

[Dave McCracken]

TR, Fit, Form,Focus and BA/UU/R are all crucial. I do not think one is important than the others. Shotgunning success depends on them all.

Sight choice is a tweak, not as critical but a factor.

Congrats, Will, to your GF. Some fine shooting indeed.

Knowing you, betcha you're working on next year's Open already...

 

[sm]

Mr. Fennell,
Please call me Steve.

I am in agreement with you on all points.

sm,
Great advice for aspiring clayshooters.....on point though, I rarely see "Bone Stock Guns" that truly fit thier owners. If afit is "Close", after you have shot a few hundered rounds"or more" to get familiar with the gun, have someone who knows gunfit take a critical look at the interface between the tool and the user. Afterall, I rarely see "Bone Stock" shooters

New Folks - again please note Mr. Fennell credentials and caliber of shooting.

"Tool for Task" - comes into play.

I should clarify bone stock.

I have some folks that only have one shotgun, most times I instruct ladies and kids to introduce them to shotguns. My role - if you will - I chose to assist in correct basic fundamentals. Shooting clays often on a private "cow pasture skeet field" or sometimes just using portable throwers such as Trius One Step.

This shotgun is 'general purpose' and fills the duties for Hunting, Serious Situations, Critter control on the property and "fun" - shooting cow pasture clays without stepping on one.

Now if these folks later on get financially able, have the time, or the parent(s) find themselves/ kids really want to take up the sport I/we move up to the next level of training.
I always suggest / insist they get proper training in whatever they choose.

Some may attend a defensive shotgun class and show up with what they have, then for instance let Awerbuck, Cain, whomever assist them in "Gun Fit" and needs for a Defensive Set up. One lady showed up with a 1100 in 20 ga, she has transitioned to a 870 in 20 ga, and uses a simple set up for more serious use.

She also found shooting "pump gun" only events out in the cow pasture a lot of fun and improved her skills out Hunting with her dad and Uncles. Didn't know the young lady had learned to "shuck and shoot" - kinda surprised them.
"They were short shucking and missing Steve"

Some get into Sanctioned shoots and again get the "tool for task".

Moving Targets and Focus

This is a big deal for me as well. What often separates good shooters from Great shooters is the ability to FOCUS - the mental game is such, nothing distracts. The mind is clear of everything but Focus on the bird.

New shooters I often work with are overwhelmed by the speed of targets, especially skeet, and especially doubles. So much to process with a gun, and then firing the gun.

Though I share the targets will "slow down" from experience once the brain , eyes and human computer "access all this" still overwhelming.

They try to "aim" or "measure" and other mistakes.

As I have done in past I did so again not long ago. No guns, had two moms, two kids, stand at stations and just watch targets. We did this twice - 50 rds plus how ever re-pulls they wanted to see.

I then grabbed a youth size single shot .410 with no bead. The smallest kid could shoulder it. We again went around the stations letting each person "pretend to shoot" - no live rounds, incorportating gun safety, etiquette and use of gun and targets.

"Targets are slowing down".

I got tickeled when I heard they went out one day and used a Red Ryder BB gun to "swing thru" targets for practice.

Big grins : When a kid nails high 2 three times in a row with a 28 ga. Bigger grins when a mom and said kid take Dove for the first time and dad and granddad are like "huh?"
"You raised your head grandpa, and you stop your swing sometimes. You want to borrow that BB gun we have with no sights to practice shooting ping pong balls? "


Might explain why Mr. Fennell gets to stay in a Holiday Inn,while I am offered the Spare Dog house to stay in when I visit some folks.

Woof...Woof

Steve

 

[TrapperReady]

consider moving target focus to the top of the list.......its by FAR the most important factor

Will - I agree that target focus is critical to success. My list was more sequential. When I work with new shooters, I make sure they've got a gun that fits them pretty well*. Then, I work on the basics of stance and mounting the gun. Then, we can start throwing targets and learning how to focus on the leading edge.

All the pieces are important, but IMO one builds upon the other. You can have great target focus, but not hit a thing if the gun fit is off, or if your stance and mount are wrong.

* Actually, Step One is always SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY. A knowledge and understanding of the Four Rules is always something I make sure I review with new shooters... before they touch a gun.