question on building an AR

[xd45gaper]

is it legal to build your own AR? i know you can purchase all the parts but reading the thread regarding KT Ordinance and there 80% receivers made me wonder.

i have always been under the impression you could build your own AR the only part that need an FFL transaction was the lower receiver. so is it legal to build your own AR or are all the parts the sell for them just replacement parts for already built AR's???

 

[VARifleman]

KT Ordnance got in trouble because the BATF said that their AR15 80% receivers were really more than 80% completed. It is certainly legal to build it from a stripped lower, or a partially completed receiver, or a piece of metal you mill yourself.

 

[Andrewsky]

Is an AR lower a pistol or a longarm?

 

[HardKnox]

it depends on whats on the 4473, a stripped lower can be anything, as can a partially completed reciever

 

[Megistopoda]

45 GAP:

The lower receiver is the "firearm" according to ATF. You will need to purchase a lower receiver via an FFL, or a face to face sale within your state as legal.

The other parts (stocks, bolts, barrels, handguards, trigger parts, upper receiver, etc.) can be mailed interstate right to your doorstep. The non-lower receiver parts are about as regulated as are door knobs. You can do anything you want in building it so long as it does not violate federal or local laws.

The Fed government still regulates such builds only if you add a silencer, or make a short-barreled rifle. It strictly prohibits you from manufacturing a select-fire or full auto firearm, unless you have that class of manufacturing FFL.

Generally, lower receivers that are 80% complete or less are not regulated (much like if you bend your own AK receiver from a "flat"). You can buy an 80% receiver without an FFL, and then you have to complete the receiver yourself. At that point, you can build the rifle for personal use and do not have to apply a serial number. If you choose to transfer that firearm, you will have to apply a permanent serial number of some kind.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

It is correct that legally you are not required to add a serial number. The federal law states that any licensed manufacturer must serial number all firearms, and since you'd be building one for yourself, you don't have to do it.

This is like building a 1919 with an 80% sideplate, or some of the semi builds from previously demiled scrap metal.

That said I _always_ serial number anything I build (1919, ARs from forgings, I love playing in the machine shop). I use year and my initials and the number that year. Don't plan on selling anything you build, because if you do, you _might_ make yourself an "unlicensed manufacturer", and you don't want to be there.

Why? Well, federal law may only require licensed manufacturers to do that and not folks who build for "personal use", but do you really want to be the guy trying to explain to some know-it-all cop why your gun doesn't have a serial number? (Not cop bashing, but being a police officer doesn't make one an expert in federal gun law!)

Re KT: Go to their page and read the legal docs they posted. Doesn't look good for them.

 

[rino451]

KT got in trouble because they were selling them and BAFTE decided that they were more than 80% or somesuch so they were unlawfully manufacturing. A person can build one legally. Selling it is something different. Personally, I'd scrap the lower and sell the rest as a kit.

 

[ieszu]

Having done some business over the years with KT Ordinance, I can tell you that they are not being prosecuted for the items they were selling. What they are getting prosecuted for is their "Building Parties", where they invite people over, sell them the 80% receiver and then put it in a CnC set-up. The person who bought the 80% receiver then hits the start button, and finishes it.

This means that the government is prosecuting them not for violating any gun laws, but rather for conspiracy to violate them, as well as the 11% excise tax, as they are being finished on their premises, and they sold the parts kits and uppers as well.....

 

[TexasRifleman]

but do you really want to be the guy trying to explain to some know-it-all cop why your gun doesn't have a serial number?

If you are in the position of having to explain to LE why your gun has no serial number I suspect you've made a lot of mistakes already, that will be the least of your worries.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

I suggest you read http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/pdfs/USAv1911.pdf (posted on KTO's own site) and then make up your mind. If that document is to be believed, the gentlemen pushed the law to the extreme, and made some poor choices, such as:

With respect to Celata obtaining a variance letter from the ATF for his frames, Subject 2 stated "Rick just doesn't do that stuff; forgiveness is easier to ask than permission."

Part of the complaint is indeed items sold.

You can play internet lawyer and second amendment cowboy all you want, but when it comes to building "for personal use", your mind is your primary weapon. Act stupid, and things can get bad. Act really stupid, and you're going to screw it up for the guys who don't.

I've got some very interesting firearms; guns that attract a lot of attention when taken to a range. The last thing I would do is have something like my semi MG42 with no serial number. That's stupid, just like pushing the ATF. The laws are there, we may not agree with them, but as has been demonstrated over and over, playing cowboy isn't going to change them. And when it comes to stuff like this, a little bit of fore thought can save a lot of heartache.

 

[xd45gaper]

ok i that makes sense, i wasnt real sure what an 80% receiver was lol and the diffrence between them is the FFL xfer.

if you purchase a complete lower will it have a SN on it? and could someone clear one more thing up,

if I build an AR for personal use then i have to keep it forever and never sell it? unless i part it out?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

A complete lower will have a serial number; a complete AR lower is a "firearm" legally.

If you buy a complete lower and assemble (at that point it's pretty much like putting together a model kit) an AR, you could sell it at a later date without too many worries.

If you actually make your own receiver, and you sell the gun, you get in to the issues of "engaging in the business of manufacturing firearms", and as an unlicensed individual, you could be in big trouble. Once the firearm enters in to commerce, it's a whole different story from "building for personal use".

My advice:

1) You should really only thing about "making" a receiver if you're in to the whole "making it myself" sort of thing. Yeah, you can buy a blank forging for under $30, but it requires a couple of hundred worth of taps and bits, not to mention a drill press and/or milling machine. I would stay clear of the 80% AR receivers for the time being, but that's just me. (see note)

2) If this is at all confusing, consider buying a completed receiver and building on that. You can get a Stag receiver for around $100. Just find a friendly FFL that will handle the transfer for you, select from one of the many companies that sell AR parts sets, and away you go.

You will need some special tools, like a barrel wrench, and you should understand things like "torque". Also get a good manual on the gun, which you need anyway. If you're handy with tools, it's not that hard, and it is a lot of fun to shoot a rifle you put together yourself.

Note on "80%": there really is no such thing legally. Either it is a firearm receiver, or it's not. "80%" is a marketing tool to say "some of the hard machine work has been done already". The problem is, legally, there's no definitive line that says how much machining is too much. The ATF will review a part and issue a letter stating whether or not the item is indeed a "firearms receiver". If someone sold an "80%" AR receiver and the ATF decided it was trivial to drill a couple of holes and have a "firearms receiver", they would (and have) determine that was indeed a receiver.

 

[O C]

Rather than get caught up in the legal mumbo jumbo, just buy a stripped lower from a FFL dealer, get parts as needed and start the long and expensive road to ARitis. I have built 6 so far and no end is in sight.Different calibers, barrel length. stock configurations, sights, scopes,paint schemes, and on and on. I gotta go now the nice lady has my medication ready> O C

 

[Zach S]

If you are in the position of having to explain to LE why your gun has no serial number I suspect you've made a lot of mistakes already, that will be the least of your worries.

I once spent an hour sitting in a blind turn on a rural road while my lady, myself, and my car got searched because I informed a deputy at a license check that I had a concealed handgun permit and a pistol in the car (which is required by NC law, and linked to my driver's license).

In that hour, I had to explain why my 1911 was cocked. Why it wasnt registered. Why I had two spare magazines. Why there was an AR magazine in the trunk. Why I had a glock magazine. Why the mags were numbered. Why I owned an AR15 and a Glock. Why I didnt have a glock or AR in the car. How I got my CHP. Why I got my CHP. Where I got my CHP. Why I drive a de-commsioned police car. Why I was wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day.

I had to explain all of this because of an ******* cop that didnt like my beat up springer mil-spec. I'd hate to have to explain why my AR15 had no serial number to the same officer.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Why the mags were numbered.

You should keep them numbered 1,2,and 4 for next time. If they want to harass you, at least let them play "find the nonexistant magazine".

 

[RyanM]

Making your own receiver probably isn't worth the effort. You can get an already made, stripped lower for about $80 plus shipping and transfer fee. Del-Ton sells kits that'll let you build a complete rifle on the receiver.

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_s/1.htm

Only tools really required are some roll pin punches and a mallet.

 

[XD_fan]

Buy a lower and all the parts to assemble it. Make sure it has a "legal" stock for your state and you have a legal AR. Then buy as many uppers as you like. You only need one lower. (If thatwere only true. About only "needing" one lower.) Unless your in Cal'y then your just hosed. Totally.