Question on light loads in magnum cases

[Smaug]

This last trip to the range, I had a box of powderpuff 357 that's easy to shoot, even in really light guns:

• 105 gr. hard cast & lubed lead bullet
• 3.8 gr. HP38
• Mixed 357 brass
• CCI small pistol primers
• Heavy roll crimp
• Shot from my 3" SP-101

I noticed that recoil was quite variable and I saw unburnt powder on the table top I was shooting over.

I think this means that the small quantity of fast powder was not all igniting or was igniting irregularly. Probably due to it not being all next to the primer due to the huge case capacity.

Does this sound right to you?

I think one solution is to use 148 gr. wadcutters that take a lot of case capacity and maybe load them a bit on the heavier side.

Another might be to use blackpowder, as the 38 Special was (I believe) invented at the end of the blackpowder era and the 357 case is even bigger.

What's your solution? Would magnum primers help here?

 

[Charlie98]

HP38 does not require a Magnum primer, I find it unlikely that Magnum primers would benefit, particularly with such a light charge.

I think you are getting erratic or poor burn because that light bullet over that light charge of powder in that big case is not reaching it's happy place in the whole burn cycle, even with the heavy roller. I do agree that going to a heavier bullet would be a better choice... not only because it will take up some of that empty case, but because the added weight of the heavier bullet will help the powder burn more complete.

Edit to add: Blackpowder in this situation would be ridiculous.

 

[Smaug]

Edit to add: Blackpowder in this situation would be ridiculous.

Why? 38 Special was originally a blackpowder cartridge, which is why its case capacity is so high. 357 has even more.

It is also usual for powder charges that fill the case more to be more accurate.

 

[Jim Watson]

You are on the ragged edge. I once whipped out a batch of .38s with 125 gr bullets and a light load of HP38 without changing the seating from the usual 160 gr.
First I had variable report and recoil, then I had a stuck bullet. Coming up from Low Ready with the powder against the bullet base, the primer flash just did not make it the length of the airspace, the powder was packed in the barrel behind the stuck bullet.
I seated the remaining bullets to the shoulder, as deep as they would go. They then shot fine.

I would use Special brass and minimum OAL. If still erratic, more powder. Or different powder if you have or can get some. A friend loads real powderpuffs for CAS and Clays works for him. Or a heavier bullet; a flush wadcutter would work.

Black powder? Not necessary. I only shoot BP in an easily cleaned single shot rifle.

 

[Bazoo]

My guess would be you need to up your powder charge, seat your bullets deeper, or switch powders. Bullseye is less sensitive. A mag primer would help.

black powder isn’t a light recoil powder. It has to have a case full to be safe. So a full power 38 special in other words.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, I use Bullseye in my .45 Minor ammo; it is more consistent in light loads than HP38 or Titegroup.

 

[Smaug]

You are on the ragged edge. I once whipped out a batch of .38s with 125 gr bullets and a light load of HP38 without changing the seating from the usual 160 gr.
First I had variable report and recoil, then I had a stuck bullet. Coming up from Low Ready with the powder against the bullet base, the primer flash just did not make it the length of the airspace, the powder was packed in the barrel behind the stuck bullet.
I seated the remaining bullets to the shoulder, as deep as they would go. They then shot fine.

I would use Special brass and minimum OAL. If still erratic, more powder. Or different powder if you have or can get some. A friend loads real powderpuffs for CAS and Clays works for him. Or a heavier bullet; a flush wadcutter would work.

Black powder? Not necessary. I only shoot BP in an easily cleaned single shot rifle.

My powder choices right now are HP38 (a bit left), WST (Winchester Super Target). I'd love to get some Unique or Universal, but as I have a pound of WST to work through, I'm not willing to pay to get Unique or Universal shipped.

There's that one cowboy powder, Trail Boss... Does that fill cases better? I notice it always has really low published velocities...

 

[AJC1]

Hate to say it but tightgroup is perfect for this. Your in a situation where people do powder front/back testing

 

[Mk-211]

Add some kind of case filler if you're seeing a lot of unburnt powder.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This last trip to the range, I had a box of powderpuff 357 that's easy to shoot, even in really light guns:

• 105 gr. hard cast & lubed lead bullet
• 3.8 gr. HP38
• Mixed 357 brass
• CCI small pistol primers
• Heavy roll crimp
• Shot from my 3" SP-101

I noticed that recoil was quite variable and I saw unburnt powder on the table top I was shooting over.

I think this means that the small quantity of fast powder was not all igniting or was igniting irregularly. Probably due to it not being all next to the primer due to the huge case capacity.

Does this sound right to you?

I think one solution is to use 148 gr. wadcutters that take a lot of case capacity and maybe load them a bit on the heavier side.

Another might be to use blackpowder, as the 38 Special was (I believe) invented at the end of the blackpowder era and the 357 case is even bigger.

What's your solution? Would magnum primers help here?

Position sensitivity problem. Where was this load taken from? Lyman’s 48th has a load for W231 under a 90gr LRN but it starts at 8.1gr. The 105gr in that big case with too little powder would make me leery of using the table where you got that combo for a source.

I load 109gr LTC bullets in .38Spl cases with 4.0gr of TiteGroup (Lyman’s 48th) if you find some. It’s a laser beam!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Why? 38 Special was originally a blackpowder cartridge, which is why its case capacity is so high. 357 has even more.

It is also usual for powder charges that fill the case more to be more accurate.

Problem solved! Go for it. Glad you figured it out.
See? You didn’t need any advice after all.

 

[film495]

I've loaded and shot 3.3 grains of HP38/Win231 in .38 Special and they are easy shooting mouse farts, but never had any issues. 158 Grain semi wad cutter. your bullet is lighter, so - possibly you are not generating enough initial pressure to get a good ignition. Maybe just seating a bit deeper if possible, and a bit more crimp would get you a more consistent burn. If I were you I'd try the 148 grain wadcutter and compare the same charge and see if that gets you the consistency you want. Mixed brass will give you a bit of inconsistency, but I can't imagine enough to feel it.

 

[Charlie98]

Why? 38 Special was originally a blackpowder cartridge, which is why its case capacity is so high. 357 has even more.

It is also usual for powder charges that fill the case more to be more accurate.

...and you can do that without resorting to Black.

Black powder? Not necessary. I only shoot BP in an easily cleaned single shot rifle.

black powder isn’t a light recoil powder. It has to have a case full to be safe. So a full power 38 special in other words.

Lyman’s 48th has a load for W231 under a 90gr LRN but it starts at 8.1gr.

Honestly, OP, you are barking up the wrong tree. As AJC suggested... and I kind of wondered... TiteGroup might be your answer, but I don't see any recipes on Hodgdon's website data. My biggest concern is that light bullet in the .357 case. A heavier bullet will serve you better, and particularly in the .357 case, or a heavier charge of HP-38.

 

[black mamba]

• Use bulkier powder (Green Dot and VV320 are similar burn rate but take up more case room)
• Use heavier bullet
• Deep seat bullet to reduce case capacity
• Use more powder (HP38/Win231 burns much cleaner at higher pressures)

 

[Smaug]

Problem solved! Go for it. Glad you figured it out.
See? You didn’t need any advice after all.

Just because I asked why doesn't mean I'm challenging you; I'm just trying to learn. Others managed to respond without getting offended and sarcastic like my 16 year old girl.

Yeah, I'm using the light bullet in the long case with not a lot of powder because I wanted powderpuff loads that wouldn't carbon ring my chambers at the 38 Spl spot. Using more powder and heavier bullets would likely solve my ignition problem, but I will gain unwanted recoil. It's not a problem for me, but it is for my wife. If that's the way it has to be, then OK.

I'll keep an eye out for Titegroup, but would appreciate a recipe or two, since there isn't a load from Hodgdon. Got one you would share?

Re. Mk-211's idea to use a filler, What could I possibly use for a wad/filler to take up that space between the powder and bullet? This might not be worth the trouble in the end, but it's worth considering.

I admit that I've never shot black powder and have no idea what to expect in terms of the mess. Does it need special solvent to clean up? I have a 45 Colt revolver incoming too that could also use blackpowder, and I have some guys telling me it's a lot of fun. It was just one possible solution; didn't mean to upset anyone.

**************
Here's my plan, then:

1. Load the rest of the 105 gr. flat point bullets in 38 Spl cases with a bit more powder and shoot them from my LCR. It shoots great from 357 cases with 5.2 gr. of HP38, for example.
2. Load 150 gr. wadcutters in 357 Mag cases to take up a bunch more case volume. If it's still inconsistent, add a bit more powder

 

[Soonerpesek]

Load 150 gr. wadcutters in 357 Mag cases to take up a bunch more case volume

• Deep seat bullet to reduce case capacity

I would try @black mamba suggestion with your current projectiles first to see if the situation remedies itself.

 

[AJC1]

Others managed to respond without getting offended and sarcastic like my 16 year old girl.


**************
Here's my plan, then:

1. Load the rest of the 105 gr. flat point bullets in 38 Spl cases with a bit more powder and shoot them from my LCR. It shoots great from 357 cases with 5.2 gr. of HP38, for example.
2. Load 150 gr. wadcutters in 357 Mag cases to take up a bunch more case volume. If it's still inconsistent, add a bit more powder

This plan seams like a reasonable solution.

Stoking this fire isn't going to help, but his post was also snarky..sparky...

I don't support the idea of a filler in any case let alone a pistol case.

 

[ballman6711]

I admit that I've never shot black powder and have no idea what to expect in terms of the mess. Does it need special solvent to clean up? I have a 45 Colt revolver incoming too that could also use blackpowder, and I have some guys telling me it's a lot of fun. It was just one possible solution; didn't mean to upset anyone.

Black powder is a lot of fun. That being said, a few things you need to know.

1) No airspace between bullet and powder. It needs to be packed tight to prevent kabooms.
2) The best way I know to clean after shooting black powder is hot soapy water. The hotter the water the better. Dry it well afterwards and oil if it's a modern gun or use bore butter (or equivalent) if it's a muzzle loader.
3) Don't wait to clean your gun. Clean it the day you shoot it or the next day at the latest. It will cause rust to start almost immediately. You don't have to clean it at the range, but don't put it away thinking you'll get to it in a few days or a week.

You might want to read a bit on the Blackpowder section here, and ask questions to the guys/girls that shoot it regularly.

chris

 

[Smaug]

I would try @black mamba suggestion with your current projectiles first to see if the situation remedies itself.

I can't really seat these bullets much deeper. I'm seating so I can use the crimp cannelure. Here's the bullet:
https://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/539/38-105-FP-Rattler


I guess I could seat it a BIT deeper and crimp over the cone part?

 

[Soonerpesek]

I can't really seat these bullets much deeper. I'm seating so I can use the crimp cannelure. Here's the bullet:

Ahhh.....I see that there isn't much more room.....that's a tiny pellet....!
Maybe a slightly higher charge would suffice while keeping the recoil down to acceptable levels for her...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Just because I asked why doesn't mean I'm challenging you; I'm just trying to learn. Others managed to respond without getting offended and sarcastic like my 16 year old girl.

You misunderstand completely. First, I wasn't "offended." In order to be offended, I would have to care. I don't. Second, I was agreeing with your idea of using black powder, or a substitute which would be even better. Triple 7 is really good in a modern cartridge and I've done it myself for "Cowboy Gun" loads. Final thought: it occurs to me, I didn't use bad language or call names, I figured from the way you responded you were REAL familiar with black powder and knew what you were doing. I just agreed and said (quite supportively) that you didn't really need advice, you got this.
Now, the only way you could think agreeing with your idea to use black powder in a .357 case would be offensive to one of us other posters is if you were trying to be offensive to us other posters.

I think you should try it. Goex publishes loading tables on their website. Read up on black powder care and reach out to @Driftwood Johnson about his preparation and care routine. Cleaning isn't nearly has bade if you prepare the steel and mechanism right. Driftwood's got the magic spell for that. I think 777 is the answer but he will tell you how wrong I am and how it really needs to be done. Listen up and follow through. Smokefull is fun and if done right is more fun than smokeless.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Black powder is a lot of fun. That being said, a few things you need to know.

It sure is! My regular .38S&W, .32S&W, and .32H&R loads are all Old Eynsford FFFg. I've loaded .38LC and .38Spl w/ Goex, too. No hassles and most of those guns are SA/DA revolvers, mostly top-breaks. The only "hard" part is finding a lube that works for both smokeless and smokefull. The green stuff Hunter's Supply uses is good and so is that clear lube Cast Performance uses. I'd guess plated or painted would be fine. Red and Blue Carnauba get a little gummy and stick the cylinder after 12-18 rounds.

The indoor range doesn't like me shooting smokefull but outside nobody complains if they're not around.

 

[.308 Norma]

What could I possibly use for a wad/filler to take up that space between the powder and bullet?

A wisp of Dacron pillow stuffing will do the trick. You can buy a bag of it at most any fabric store, and one bag will last you a lifetime.

This might not be worth the trouble in the end, but it's worth considering.

In my experience, it's not worth the trouble, and it smokes.

When using small charges of fast burning powders in magnum handgun cases, one technique I've heard about and always meant to try (but never have) is pointing my revolver skyward so that the powder falls back against the primer between every shot. I've heard it makes for more consistent velocities - lower SDs.
But like I said, I've never tried it. I'd just be interested in the results if anyone else has tried it.

 

[N555]

I say don't waste 357 brass on light loads.
38spl brass will be cheaper and make for more consistent shots.
For me all my 357 ammo is loaded in 38spl cases, but I don't own a 38spl and I don't load my "full power" ammo anywhere near "full 357 power". I'm usually some where between 38spl+p but less than the start load for a 357mag.

 

[Smaug]

A wisp of Dacron pillow stuffing will do the trick. You can buy a bag of it at most any fabric store, and one bag will last you a lifetime.

In my experience, it's not worth the trouble, and it smokes.
When using small charges of fast burning powders in magnum handgun cases, one technique I've heard about and always meant to try (but never have) is pointing my revolver skyward so that the powder falls back against the primer between every shot. I've heard it makes for more consistent velocities - lower SDs.
But like I said, I've never tried it. I'd just be interested in the results if anyone else has tried it.

Thanks, I think I have an old pillow I can sacrifice to try. (if I have any more of this ammo left) I wonder if the powder grains getting in the voids in the stuffing would not ignite...

I will try the barrel-up trick. I tried it, but forgot to do it BETWEEN shots; only did it for that first shot, and it wound up being a full power shot.