Thoughts on this 357 load?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks guys for your thoughts.

I shot fifty of these today through my 4” S&W 19 and 3” SP-101. They were good. A bit more stout than most 38 Spl (Not the S&B 158 gr, those are tough!) Not too bad, but not for my wife. She much preferred the 38 wadcutters with 2.8 gr of WST.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bfh_auto, Random 8, Charlie98 and 1 other person
I cleaned for a couple hours; Those loads leaded the hell out of my 19 and SP-101. I left lead solvent in the barrels overnight. It’s too hot without a gas check, it seems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bfh_auto
Smaug said:
I cleaned for a couple hours; Those loads leaded the hell out of my 19 and SP-101. I left lead solvent in the barrels overnight. It’s too hot without a gas check, it seems.
Click to expand...
Lead is a slow and heavy affair. Speed is for jacketed. The 148 is probably the lightest I would go. It's special because it's seated so deep you loose a ton of case capacity and can use much lighter charges of fast powder.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bfh_auto
Smaug said:
I cleaned for a couple hours; Those loads leaded the hell out of my 19 and SP-101. I left lead solvent in the barrels overnight. It’s too hot without a gas check, it seems.
Click to expand...
Ummmmm, it isn't always speed/pressure that causes leading. Most times it has more to do with bullet fit. What is the diameter of those 105gr bullets. I don't remember seeing if you posted the bullet diameter or bullet hardness. You may need a .359" or even a .360" bullet or better yet, use a 125gr or 158gr bullet like many posts above have suggested.
So if you can tell us what the bullet diameter is along with the hardness we might have a way to eliminate the leading.

Just a hint about cleaning lead without buying kits and stuff to remove it.
If you have a barrel cleaning solution or a copper removing cleaner is even better. The copper cleaner works by getting under the copper and loosening it from the barrel. It worked just as well with lead. It does it's job and gets under the lead and it comes right out with a bore brush. Leave it in over night like you did with the cleaning solvent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Walkalong and Bfh_auto
Smaug said:
I cleaned for a couple hours; Those loads leaded the hell out of my 19 and SP-101. I left lead solvent in the barrels overnight. It’s too hot without a gas check, it seems.
Click to expand...
Have you tried sliding one of those through your cylinders? My Blackhawk was tight enough I couldn't fit jacketed bullets through it. Cast was terrible until I made them the appropriate size.
Also check you bore diameter. It has to be the same size or smaller than your cylinder diameter.
Just remember the path less traveled usually has more thorns on it than the beaten path.
 
Bfh_auto said:
Have you tried sliding one of those through your cylinders? My Blackhawk was tight enough I couldn't fit jacketed bullets through it. Cast was terrible until I made them the appropriate size.
Also check you bore diameter. It has to be the same size or smaller than your cylinder diameter.
Just remember the path less traveled usually has more thorns on it than the beaten path.
Click to expand...

Are you saying the bullets might be too big and that's why they're leading? Seems then like I should check the bullet diameter vs. barrel, not cylinder chamber... The box says they're sized to .358, but I haven't checked.
 
Bfh_auto said:
The throats of the cylinder might be too small in comparison to the bore diameter.
Click to expand...

Yep! The barrel might need a .358 bullet but the cylinder throats might size the bullet down to .357 which leaves it too small for the barrel. Leading is the most likely result, and poor accuracy would be right behind.

chris
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bfh_auto
If I recall from your original post is those bullets are beveled base (tapered at the base). No mention of the hardness either. More than likely you are getting blow by gas that is just melting the bullet and leaving skid marks. Just a bit too fast with the wrong powder for the job. Flat based bullets are a loaders best choice if you are going to push a lead round past 1000 as a general purpose round in several guns. A flat based brinnel 12 or less will have a much better chance of sealing the bore than a “casters special” beveled base. Do yourself a huge favor and slow down a bit. Before you buy anything, figure out what you want to do, ask the questions about known success stories with particular loads for your desired purpose. There are Mechanics and there are Parts Swapping Technicians. One can diagnose the problem and fix it, the other just keeps changing parts until they fix it. The Mechanic will ultimately save you time and money!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TriTone, Bfh_auto and Smaug
Small cylinder throats is common in the revolver world. Jacketed bullets shoot fine through a gun with minor dimensional issues. Cast is more finicky for everything to be right or real close. If your throats are small, about $50 will have them reamed to appropriate diameters.

There are other factors that might make a lead bullet lead. Too soft an alloy for the pressure used. Too hard an alloy for the pressure used coupled with lube that isn’t sufficient. Most commercial bullets use hard lube. Hard lubes don’t work so well at lower or mid pressures. Couple that with a gun slightly out of spec and you got leading.

Chemicals won’t do much for leading. Atleast with any speed. The easiest way is to scrub it out with a choreboy copper pot scrubber wrapped around a bore cleaning brush. Cut the pot scrubber about an 1.25 wide and 4-5” long and wrap it around your brush. Insert the brush in the frame opening and put the threaded portion of the brushes shank towards the forcing cone. Put the cleaning rod down the bore and screw the brush on the end. Then pull it into the bore. It will not want to go, you’ll use ten or fifteen pounds of force to force it tightly in the bore. Then scrub away. Use a little solvent or oil for lube. Don’t remove the brush or you will have to reinsert it through the frame opening. Use only pure copper pot scrubbers. I found o cedar brand at my local iga. Should take about 2 minutes of scrubbing. To get the forcing cone, I use enough choreboy that it won’t pull into the barrel and pull it into the cone hard. Then spin it with force applied to it. I make one for this, and use another for the bore. I take a piece of aluminum cleaning rod section and bend a hook on the male end for a handle, so I have a fixed handle pistol rod I can spin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Smaug
Smaug said:
Are you saying the bullets might be too big and that's why they're leading? Seems then like I should check the bullet diameter vs. barrel, not cylinder chamber... The box says they're sized to .358, but I haven't checked.
Click to expand...
If you measure accurately and correctly I think you will find that both your Model 19 and SP101 will be different. If you measure the same models made in another day there will probably be a slight difference as well. Tailoring a bullet for ONE gun is easier than making loads that will get good clean performance in several. It just makes sense. I am having problems wrapping my head around what you are trying to accomplish. We can speculate about “why” but I think we are just chasing problems instead of starting with a combo that is known to work for a particular need. The Johnny Cash song “One Piece at a Time” comes to mind.

You said you were happy with your Wadcutter load. Most are! Why? A slow lead bullet that slugs up in your barrels sealing the bore and throat not matter if it reads .357 or .359. That is why it is a success story to many. If soft recoil, accuracy is what you are after a 148 HBWC with 2.7 Grains of Bullseye will do that all day. You may get some lead but nothing normal cleaning cannot handle.

If you want a lead bullet in .357 that will do more than a .38 Special and want to load it in .357 brass find a nice 158 SWC with a flat base and load it with 6.0 Grains of Unique for 1000 fps, laser beam! HP-38/231 will do the same with the heavier bullet. I found a nice load with Win244 (a similar powder to 231 on the burn rate table) using a plated bullet that are wonderful.

The thing to know, and you will learn this by reading between the lines in manuals is that if a popular powder is not commonly listed with a particular bullet weight it is for a reason. The reason may be several. In this case a fast burning powder with a light weight bullet at a pressure that will give you a velocity higher than what a beveled base bulk bullet should be pushed at. Although its physically works and is not dangerous it just is not good.

Part of this hobby is trial and error, no harm no foul. I started loading and had the benefit of experienced loaders just passing down the formulas to loads that just worked and for a long time I just made ammo to shoot and had no complaints. It wasn’t till later that I started experimenting and had to work out issues with combinations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ballman6711, Bfh_auto and Smaug
Bazoo said:
<snip>
Chemicals won’t do much for leading. Atleast with any speed. The easiest way is to scrub it out with a choreboy copper pot scrubber wrapped around a bore cleaning brush. Cut the pot scrubber about an 1.25 wide and 4-5” long and wrap it around your brush. Insert the brush in the frame opening and put the threaded portion of the brushes shank towards the forcing cone. Put the cleaning rod down the bore and screw the brush on the end. Then pull it into the bore. It will not want to go, you’ll use ten or fifteen pounds of force to force it tightly in the bore. Then scrub away. Use a little solvent or oil for lube. Don’t remove the brush or you will have to reinsert it through the frame opening. Use only pure copper pot scrubbers. I found o cedar brand at my local iga. Should take about 2 minutes of scrubbing. To get the forcing cone, I use enough choreboy that it won’t pull into the barrel and pull it into the cone hard. Then spin it with force applied to it. I make one for this, and use another for the bore. I take a piece of aluminum cleaning rod section and bend a hook on the male end for a handle, so I have a fixed handle pistol rod I can spin.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tutorial and photo. I've saved them for future reference and put copper Chore Boy scrubber on the shopping list.

wcwhitey said:
I am having problems wrapping my head around what you are trying to accomplish. We can speculate about “why” but I think we are just chasing problems instead of starting with a combo that is known to work for a particular need. The Johnny Cash song “One Piece at a Time” comes to mind.
Click to expand...
What I was trying to do with the OP was to have a gut check before I shot those loads.

More generally, what I'm trying to do is make light-kicking loads in 357 cases with the components I have on hand. There are a ton of solutions if I spend thousands of bucks buying all different components.

Toward that end, I'll tell you what I have on hand and maybe you can suggest some good loads:

  • A tiny bit of HP38; maybe enough for another 100 rounds
  • A full pound of WST powder
  • A full pound of 2400 powder
  • A tiny bit of H110 powder
  • A full pound of 700X powder
  • ~ 100 of those "Rattler" bullets that have been problematic in 357 cases. (LINK) I'm gathering that these would be better in 38 cases, as I won't have to push them so hard for them to be consistent.
  • 357 cases
  • 38 cases
  • (250) HiTek coated 150 gr. wadcutters
  • (300) 124 gr (?) SJHP
Finding the powders I want has been hit or miss lately, mostly miss. I've just been buying a pound at a time of something I can use. For example, I wasn't looking for any 2400, but that's what they had and my H110 is running low, so I bought it. I wasn't looking for WST, but that was the only pistol powder I could find locally to replace my HP38, which is almost out. I bought the 700X just because I had such a hard time replacing the HP38 for awhile, I wanted to have a spare pound of something I knew I could use.

Primers have been even harder to find than powder, so I'm just working with what I have.

I don't think I'll have problems making loads I like with the 38 cases, wadcutters or SJHP bullets.
The 357 load you mentioned sounds good, but I can't seem to get Unique or Universal powder. I'm keeping my eyes open. It seems like Unique would be the answer to a lot of my wishes. If it ever gets properly in stock again, I'm going to buy 8 lbs. of it.

I've seen your posts before about bevel-based bullets and how they're bad, but finding some that are flat based... I just haven't seen any. Got a source of some good HiTek coated flat based bullets?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bfh_auto
Those Meister bullets are the problem. Just not compatible with powders in hand. I use RimRock Bullets, he has some flat based options, I use mostly from his Cowboy line as they are not as hard as some other commercial casters. They work great in the 750-1000 fps range in all my guns. I do not use coated bullets, if I need more I go plated from X-Treme.

My non scientific read in the problem with the 110 grain bullets. The base has a taper, casters tell you that is to make them easier to load. In reality it is easier for them to cast. It is tapered at the base, when fast burning powders ignite the are forced to the outside of the bullet as much as pushing forward. This forces some hot gas to the throat, forcing cone and barrel on the outside of the bullet. It melts and leaves hot lead behind in the barrel. Skid marks as I call them. A flat based also melts somewhat but as it is closer to throat and bore diameter the lead will be pushed up, slugging up making a seal. All gas is now pushing the bullet from behind. You still may get some leading but it’s more like shooting .22 LR than melted lead in the barrel bonded to the surface. This as you have found out is a mess and a chore to remove. If you look at a good manual like Lyman there are very few bullets with bevel bases. The ones that are are target type loads using low charges at low velocity. Which can work. Nothing wrong with a heavier bullet with a fast burning powder bevel based. It’s just when the powder charges and velocities get higher the leading shows up. That usually happens with beveled base and light for caliber bullets.

The Wadcutters as you have found will work great with the WST and HP38 you have on hand. Light loads and slower velocities. The jacketed won’t care it will just be a matter of finding a good safe powder weight that is accurate. Your Magnum Powders in .357 Velocity Loads will love them but don’t like to be loaded low, it’s the opposite of the fast burning powders.

I have loaded a 110 Grain bullet in lead for .38 and .357, a Penta Hollow Point using several powders. If you find a good combination for them you can have what I have left, hate them. Jacketed, that is another story, some nice loadings can be had. Good luck, it’s a process.

Here is a link of what I look for in a bullet:
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=235

I have not used these specifically but I like the mold and design.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Smaug
mdi said:
I have never tried a sub 115 grain bullet for 38 or 357 Mag. If I was working up a load for a bullet weight not in my manual I'd start with the next heavier listed bullet. The only "formula" I use is occasionally "Max -10%" and never any "splitting the difference". Powder loads are not linier. Meaning if you increase (or decrease) a load by say 10%, the pressure will not necessarily change by that 10%.

I looked at the Hodgdon reloading data site and there is no HP38 or W231 data for a 105 gr bullet but these are listed;
  • 296
  • 572
  • AutoComp
  • CFE Pistol
  • H110
  • HS-6
  • IMR 4227
  • Lil'Gun
  • Longshot
  • Titegroup
...
Click to expand...
I saw H110 and thought "that little puppy must go screaming out of the barrel." 18.0grs = 1763fps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Smaug
  • Locked
Question on light loads in magnum cases
Replies
58
Views
2K
Handloading and Reloading
CoalTrain49
CoalTrain49
B
  • Locked
Does anyone use Win. 231 for 357 Magnum?
Replies
25
Views
17K
Handloading and Reloading
flipajig
F
Smaug
  • Locked
HP38 load for 44 Magnum lever action?
Replies
7
Views
2K
Handloading and Reloading
FlyBoy007
F
J
  • Locked
Lyman #429215 .44 Mag Load Development
Replies
2
Views
2K
Handloading and Reloading
kelbro
K
Rule3
  • Locked
Looking for 44 Special 200 grain Mild (cowboy) accurate, type loads
Replies
47
Views
2K
Handloading and Reloading
GeoDudeFlorida
GeoDudeFlorida
Top Bottom
Back