Question on trigger use in shooting...

[RussellC]

Ok, I have been told over the years two different Ideas about trigger pull.
One group seems to say use the pad of your finger, and operate your finger seperate from the rest of your hand, while the other school seems to say no, it should be in the joint located between the first to bones of the finger. First school says no, this will cause you to grip too high and will cause you to pull the gun when you squeeze. Other school says no this middle of the first two joints will not cause you to pull the gun, and allows you to get more skin on the gun.

If careful target shooting, I tend to use the pad method. I have been trying the other method for multiple shots, with varying success/no success.

Before I have to unlearn and relearn trigger pull, what is everyones thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Russellc

 

[BCRider]

Sadly the answer is that old classic fall back pat phrase "it depends".

On 1911's the pad of the finger is pretty much the only way to ensure accuracy. On a single action revolver the trigger pretty much has to lay in the fold of that last joint. I find that my best accuracy in my double action S&W's comes with the trigger laying alongside that last fold but not in the fold. Although it does slide there somewhat as the trigger is pulled back due to the change in angles of my finger parts.

Mind you I've got big hands with LONG fingers. So where some find that their trigger pull is nicely neutral when using the pad of their finger I have to put the trigger closer to the fold of that last joint to get a neutral pull.

And that's the thing. In the end it is not where to put it because someone says to put it there. It is all about achieving a straight back pull with no side force tension in the trigger when it breaks. Where that happens for different guns depends on the shooter's hand size and finger length. And along with that the distance to reach the trigger.

As I started out with.... "it depends"

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well, there is more than one answer to this.

For target shooting, where speed or followup shots isn't an issue and you can take a long time between shots (more than a second), it really doesn't matter as long as you are pressing the trigger straight to the rear and moving the trigger finger independently of the other fingers of your hand. When I read "careful target shooting", I usually think shooting one handed...but it really doesn't matter if you are using both hands on the gun.

If speed of followup shots is important:

The first group is wrong, because htere is no such thing as too high to grip a gun

The second group is wrong, because putting the trigger in the crease of your trigger finger will tend to cause you to pull the gun off as tightening the trigger when pressing tends to curl the finger.

Using the crease on the trigger was very popular back when we all shot revolvers in DA. The first top tier revolver shooter I remember who did it differently was Jerry Miculek ...because he said it made it easier to pull the trigger straight to the rear. This technique followed over to DA/SA pistols, but has pretty much gone been replaced with the technique of using the pad on the trigger

 

[murf]

every gun is different: grip size, shape and angle, length-of -pull, trigger shape, width and length.

so, with every one, you should dry-fire it until you find the correct place for your trigger finger that does not move the sights when you pull the trigger. pull hard (about ten pounds of pressure) when doing this to simulate recoil. sights should stay aligned throughout.

murf

 

[Jim K]

Leverage is important. Not many people have the finger strength to pull through even a moderately heavy DA pull using the first pad of your finger, but that way is fine for most single action pulls.

Jim

 

[RussellC]

Thanks guys, I was sort of discovering the general consensus here,"It depends"
is the best answer. I have been trying both ways and seem to be more consistent with the "pad" method. I am getting better with the "crease" method but seem to pull the shots more frequently. More range time.

Russellc

 

[BCRider]

You can test this without expending any ammo by doing some dry firing.

The reason the shots jump to the side if the trigger isn't being pressed back in a nice straight back way is that as the pressure of our trigger finger builds and pulls the sights we compensate by pushing the gun the other way with our grip. Then when the trigger breaks there's a short time where there is a sudden reduction of pressure on the trigger. But our hands are still holding the compensatory pressure in our grip. So the gun kicks to the side due to the sudden imbalance between the trigger finger pressure and our grip pressure due to the trigger break. This jump in the imbalance will show up as a small kick of the sight picture to the side during dry firing.

You can magnify the effect by exaggerating your finger position to get a feel for what you're looking for. Go both ways from using the finger tip to up well onto the second segment if you can reach that far. Then move around and work with the finger pull until you have a nice neutral pull that produces zero kick in the sight picture. When you get to where you hear the click with no detectable sight picture jump, and be very fussy on this, then you're ready for some range time and live ammo.

An excellent shooter I know when given a gun to try will do half a dozen or more dry fire sighting breaks before trying the gun with live ammo. When I asked him why he said it was so he didn't need to waste any shots learning where to put his finger on the trigger for THAT gun. We're talking about a guy that in his heyday won a lot of high places at classic bullseye competitions and can produce quarter size rapid fire groups at 12 to 15 yards if the gun is good enough. He makes the rest of us look bad and just want to skulk away and hide....

It may not be the right way but for myself I've gotten to where I shoot DA differently from SA. For DA revolvers or first shots off my DA/SA semis I use all the joints of my trigger finger to get a long smooth pull. When shooting semi auto this changes to mostly pivoting from the middle joint with the first segment out from the knuckle held pretty still and pointed more or less straight ahead. Like I say, it may not be right but it's how I've trained myself. I'm going to stick with this oddball switching of style since I tend to get my -0's or Alphas or hit the steel at my matches with pretty good regularity. But if someone comes along and says that this is poor technique I sure wouldn't argue with them.

 

[340PD]

Personally, I don't think where your trigger finger is positioned on trigger at the start of the stroke matters. What is far more important is having your finger perpendicular to the trigger when the gun actually fires.
Most need to remember that few, if any, will ever get to actually place their finger correctly on the trigger in the 1/2 second you may have if you need to put the gun into actual service in a SD situation.
My 2¢.

 

[Potatohead]

On a side note, Yall are going to think this is ridiculous but when I use the pad on my birdy finger dry firing, I get absolutely no movement in the gun/front sight. I mean its perfectly still when I pull. I know you can't shoot that way, and I dont, your pointer could get mangled in the slide among other things Im sure, but try it, you'll see.
I think its because it pulls the trigger straight back since its longer than my pointer. And my pointer wants to pull at a little bit of an angle. Im trying to find a way to make or find a trigger that curves just a bit to the right if any of you engineers could help me out with that.. I think it will replicate the same thing thats happening when I pull with my birdy.

I know a slightly curved trigger,towards the shooting hand sounds crazy but everything sounds crazy til its normal, right?
Or maybe it should be curved to the left..Anyone want to invest in my trigger company LOL? Zipping up the flame suit now.

 

[ATLDave]

Potato', without commenting on the wisdom of it, you absolutely could shoot that way without risk of injury to your index finger. Lots of us shoot with our thumbs way up along the slide. We're not trying to touch the slide, but it doesn't mangle thumbs if some slight contact occurs. Moreover, you could get something like a CZ or TZ, where the slide fits inside the frame - there's a good half inch of exposed frame against which one could safely leave a finger pressed.

Now, there's probably a good reason that no top competitive pistol shooters use a middle-finger method.

 

[Potatohead]

True..


So, sounds like I have my first investor...?

 

[ATLDave]

I think the biggest concern with a curved trigger would be that the trigger guard no longer prevents the trigger from being pulled/pushed by something not inside the guard. I wouldn't relish holstering a gun where the trigger protruded from the side of the guard!

 

[Potatohead]

Good point. I think I could keep it from protruding though. Just an ever so slight curve. Sorry for the temporary hijack but we're talkin trigger, kind of, maybe...ergh

 

[Zaydok Allen]

More and more I find myself realizing that technique and trigger pull is not an exact science with handguns. EVERYBODY'S hands are a little different. Everyone has different strength levels, and different finger lengths. Everyone has different amounts of meet on their hands.

There are definately prefered methods that are going to work better for most people. I simply for the life of me can not pull a double action semiauto trigger with the pad of my finger repeatidly in any sort of fast or comfortable way. And when shooting fast, my finger always slides.

Try lots of methods and do what results in the best shooting for you, regardless of the conventional opinions at large.

 

[Greg528iT]

340PD that is why we practice, so that in high stress situations your finger automatically finds its spot.

Ive been going for the pad. I dont have a DA to worry about.

 

[tuj]

Brian Zins (11-time national NRA conventional pistol champ) uses the first crook of his finger on the trigger. He believes that less compressible flesh between the bone and the trigger surface increases feel.

I am not a national champ, but I shoot expert-level scores. I use the pad of my finger.

Answer: use whatever works best for you. I find the lighter the trigger, the more I want to use the pad, while heavy triggers I tend to use the crook.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Answer: use whatever works best for you. I find the lighter the trigger, the more I want to use the pad, while heavy triggers I tend to use the crook.

+1 to that

 

[9mmepiphany]

More and more I find myself realizing that technique and trigger pull is not an exact science with handgun

I think you'll find that it is an exact science...all you have to do is press the trigger smoothly straight to the rear until the trigger release the sear/hammer/striker.

How you accomplish that with your personal physiology is the part that differs. When you are world class, you can fudge on what works best for most people, because you know what to avoid. When starting out, the basic techniques that have the least likelihood of introducing extraneous influences to negatively impact the goal is pretty universal.

The trick is to define your goal and work only toward that to begin with

 

[hardluk1]

russellc I have seen a couple of hickok45's videos where he has to use the middle pad on his finger to shoot a few of these tinny 380's. He talks about is pro basket ball sized hands not fitting well. But he can still shoot the heckout of them micro pistols too.

You try different firearm and it my take a few pulls on the trigger to get right with the change of reach and trigger pull then all is right in the gun world again.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

How you accomplish that with your personal physiology is the part that differs.

When starting out, the basic techniques that have the least likelihood of introducing extraneous influences to negatively impact the goal is pretty universal.

I agree 9mm. This conveys what I was trying to say better than my post did. The basic goal is the same. An even, controled, straight back trigger pull is what we are all aiming for.

Asking for advice on trigger pull can only give someone a starting point, but in the end how you get that with your particular hands, fingers, and wrists will be modified and tweeked by each individual shooter, and those factors can/will have a direct influence on equipment choice.

So I guess I'd change my original statement to say trigger pull is an exact science, as the goal is the same in all guns really, but technique will depend on each shooters hands. Though there are starting points and styles that people should start out with when first learning.

Ultimately, I will always believe that a shooter should do what is right and works best for them, regardless of what any world class shooter, champion, or instructor says. JMO

 

[9mmepiphany]

...in the end how you get that with your particular hands, fingers, and wrists will be modified and tweeked by each individual shooter

I will always believe that a shooter should do what is right and works best for them, regardless of what any world class shooter, champion, or instructor says.

I don't mean to appear argumentative, as that is the way I learned to shoot...but, I've also learned that this usually isn't the best way to go about it. Shooting a handgun, as opposed to a longarm, is highly counter intuitive...especially the optimal griping and trigger management technique. A shooter can get quite good with an incorrect technique before they hit a plateau and have to learn to break all the bad habits they've ingrained over the years.

This isn't something you can correct over the internet, because of the lack of ability to observe, make suggestions, observe the results and make further corrections...by someone who understands the dynamics of the forces vectors and their effects.

Paying to spend a couple of hours with with someone who really does understand the techniques involved, the common errors and the correct remedies (plus the ability to teach them) will save a shooter a lot of money, in ammunition, and hours of frustration down the road

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I don't mean to appear argumentative

No man, you don't seem argumentative. It's a discussion, that's all.

A shooter can get quite good with an incorrect technique before they hit a plateau and have to learn to break all the bad habits they've ingrained over the years.

Very true.

 

[Glock Doctor]

Broadly speaking, those who use and recommend making contact between the distal joint and the trigger's face are pulling heavier triggers and/or firing double-action. People who shoot with the pad on the end of the finger do, in fact, tend to pull straight back on the trigger and, 'tap' or, 'press' more than, 'squeeze' or, 'pull' the trigger.

Some handguns are able to be shot like a rifle; and others require more of the technique used to fire a double-action pistol. I, personally, do not believe that anyone will ever handle, or learn how to handle, a pistol really well unless and until the shooter learns how to fire accurately, repetitively, and really fast.

Once I learned how to do this, my mental/physical focus changed from my hands and trigger finger to simply placing the front sight and muzzle where I wanted them to be while I worked at controlling the recoil impulse between shots. How is the right way to: pull, press, tap, or squeeze the trigger? Do it in whatever way you are best able to control that all important muzzle and/or front sight.

George Harris (the renowned pistol instructor) teaches a, 'wall drill' that emphasizes holding the muzzle perfectly still as the sear breaks. When doing this exercise he doesn't even mention, 'trigger pull'. The same thing is true of some of Harris's other basic pistol exercises. In two basic trigger manipulation techniques Harris emphasizes simply pulling the trigger (sometimes with your eyes closed) and allowing the pistol to fire without causing the muzzle to move off target.

Personally, I shoot double-action with my distal joint just touching the trigger. (First shots with some semi-autos in the same way, too; and, then, I'll take up, 'the spatial difference' by letting the trigger momentarily, 'chase' my finger into reset.) I shoot single-action by, 'splitting the pad' in front of the distal joint. Here, the position of my finger's pad on the trigger does not change between shots.

If you're wondering who's telling you this, the advice is coming to you from someone who, twice in his life, has received a standing ovation from an audience of police officers as he walked off a pistol firing line. So, yeah, among other things I know how to shoot a pistol; and were I a younger man I, probably, wouldn't be publishing this.

 

[JohnKSa]

The pad works best for me regardless of what I'm shooting.

I used to use the pad for SA or light pulls and the joint for DA pulls but wasn't happy with the on-target results in DA.

I bought an inexpensive pistol with a truly atrocious double-action pull and spent a LOT of time dryfiring it DA. The result was that I increased my trigger finger strength and improved my technique sufficiently to allow me to shoot DA using the pad and found that it improved my DA shooting considerably.

Shooters who don't have the finger strength to pull the trigger all the way through relatively easily using the pad will find that getting a little more finger on the trigger will provide more leverage and make the pull a little easier to accomplish. It will also introduce a tendency to push the gun (and therefore the point of impact) down and towards the weakhand side during the trigger pull. In addition, I find it makes it harder to keep the stronghand thumb motionless and that translates to more unintentional movement of the gun and therefore larger groups.

 

[Tomac]

All I know is when I do side-by-side Mozambique drills comparing accuracy & group size between using the pad or first joint, using the pad is always tighter and better centered (YMMV).
Tomac