Question: When to draw?

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budney

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This is a broad question--I hope it's not too broad for "Strategies and Tactics."

On this forum, and in Mas Ayoob's books, the general advice is never to draw until there's a clear need for lethal force in self-defense. Drawing at an inappropriate time can lead to criminal charges of aggravated assault or brandishing.

In direct contradiction to that, Ayoob's books remark that it's better to have the gun in hand than to have it holstered when the moment of crisis arises--and specifically, that one should never draw against a drawn gun. This indicates that one should draw before the moment of crisis, in order to be ready.

Armoredman walked through an ambush afraid to draw his gun for fear of aggravated assault charges. If his assailants had attacked, it's a tossup whether they would have gotten him before he had a chance to draw (I have no idea how quick he is on the draw).

So what's the answer to this riddle? Under what circumstances can one actually draw a weapon? Does it make a difference where it's pointed? And based on the answer to that question, how does one effectively show preparedness in dangerous situations?

--Len.
 
This is a good and a tough question. Legally, the safest thing to do is to draw only when you intend to fire as soon as you have a sight picture. Your jurisdiction will have a lot to do with how understanding the DA and jury will be of you pulling out a gun when the threat is less clear.

Another option is to take your gun out of its holster but still hold it "concealed." Eg, if the threat is behind you, unholster your gun, but hold it in front of you, out of view. Or if the gun is small enough, transfer it to your pocket. I don't know the exact laws regarding this approach (and once again they are heavily jurisdiction dependent), but this strikes me as a more legal way to draw without also drawing a brandishing or assault charge.
 
[blockquote]
Have you taken any professional training to help address your concerns?
[/blockquote]
I'm signed up for training with the F.I.R.E. Institute in Pittsburgh. Their "Tactical Pistol" course isn't until June. The next LFI-1 course near here is also in June. In the meantime, I'm reading Ayoob's books and other similar resources.

--Len.
 
I had to draw down three times in 7 years. One was a man who got to a bedroom and racked a shotgun and was coming back out.

One was a teen who had what looked to be a gun under his seat. It was a grocery stamper that had a handle that was shaped just like a Walther PPK with finger extention on the magazine.

The last one was a guy who I stopped for DUI who was evasive with his answers and was reaching inside his coat.

On the first two, I drew from the holster. On the last, I already had my gun out of the holster and behind my back since I was wearing a long winter coat.

As he started reaching, I pulled it out and said "Nice and easy". (By the way, it was my Model 15, check out the "Any Love for Model 15's" somewhere else in THR - revolvers?). He smiled and took his hand out of the coat. He said he was reaching for Identification. All I found was a set of brass knuckles. He even had the balls to come back to the station after he bonded out on DUI and CCW to ask for his knuckles back.

Otherwise, I would say that when the situation calls for it, it is better to have the gun out as opposed to in the holster. That is, unless you practice fast draw. :rolleyes:

At home I had a drunk who thought I was the source of all his problems. The first time he came by I just thought it was a drunk who did not know where he was. I later found out what he was doing there as an elderly neighbor had me call the police for her as she was scared of him. The second time he came I called the cops and waited outside with my Model 44 Mosin-Nagant,
bayonet out of course. Did not have to show it to him or otherwise brandish it in the dark. He stayed in the street yelling until the cops came. They pepper-sprayed him and that was the end of his sojourns to my house.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
On my team, we've done a scenario where you start at near contact range--draw from a retention holster and neutralize 3 targets, 2 .45s each centermass, while backpedaling to create distance.

I can do it in under 4 seconds.

In a gunfight, alot can happen in 4 seconds. But given the assault issues that can arise from brandishing, I compromise by training to get my weapon up fast and start putting rounds downrange as soon as I get a sight picture.

Would I stay holstered if I KNEW stuff was about to hit the fan? No.

But you don't always know for sure, and I figure that training for fast lethality from the holster is a good compromise.

I also think that confidence would be helpful to keep me calm enough to avoid drawing before its truly necessary.
 
budney,

Where are you in Central PA? If you're close enough and a decent guy, you can come out to train with our Studt Group team every month.
 
I have always said, first and foremost, there is no hard-and-fast rule as to when to draw, when to shoot, when to shut up and walk away. The situation has to be processed in that fraction of a second and you have to arrive at your own conclusions.

I will say that personally, if I can de-escalate the situation before lethal force begins, in any way that I can without putting myself in danger, I will do so. I have drawn or displayed firearms a number of times and so far have never shot anyone; in all cases the situation was resolved with the bad guy deciding that he didn't want to continue his bad behavior.

I see lots of people on forums who say, never draw unless you have already made up your mind to shoot (for, among others, the reason you mention, fear of a brandishing charge). I don't agree with that; My personal experience is that a clear, present, unarguable demonstration that if the action continues on the direction it is going there will be lives on the line, will fold up the opposition. I would rather know I am in the right, and able to bear witness to what occurred and why I drew my gun and DID NOT FIRE, than to testify to a grand jury why I shot some guy who was just aggressively mooching gas money.

You have to train. You have to be observant. You have to know what you are doing and be confident in yourself. How many times do police draw weapons and not fire?

Look at it like a poker game.
Your ante is your valuables on your person.
The bad guy's ante is willingness to threaten violence, especially in the face of expected lack of opposition (bully tactics). He has a knife or a stick or a pipe...maybe a gun.
Variables affecting pot odds: Room to manuever. He has reinforcements. You are defending someone else like a child or spouse. Poor lighting. Time to think. Cover. Escape routes. Etc.

If you are in fear for your life and the pot odds work out, you raise the pot all-in: His life, or yours.

In the time it takes to draw, assuming the guy cares at all, he will likely notice you are going for a gun. It comes down to a nut check against the bad guy. Again, most are bullies and cowards and when they see the gun they are going to fold the hand.
The ones that don't, you have to find the instant vibe from them that they are going to go all in with you, then you act to defend your life. If you are going to make that bet you have to be prepared and ready for the call. If your act is all bluff.... you are in trouble. It's called seizing and maintaining situational dominance. You are professional and competent in every action and project the fact that that sumbich is going to go home in a box, without Hollywood bravado or the "cool tagline".


The thing I fear the most is NOT the guy hiding in an alley waiting to jump out and say, "Give me your G-D wallet Mutha#(%*&."

What I fear is the guy hiding in the alley who is just going to beat your skull in from behind with a rock, no warning and no asking first.
 
Thanks! That's a very kind offer!

But I live in Pittsburgh, over three hours from Lewisberry.

--Len.
 
I would rather draw and defuse a questionable situation as opposed to waiting until lead has to be flying. Like in the "do you name your gun thread" they can have a Valium effect and calm people right down and change a thug's gameplan right quick.

I don't really ever want to shoot anyone. But then again, that call just might be the thug's, not mine, so I should be prepared.
 
I live in state which has pretty strong self defense protections. In Idaho you are only brandishing if you display your weapon in a threatening way, not in self defense with 2 or more witnesses, even then it is only a misdemeanor.

A firearm can be used in self defense without firing it, I will draw when there I have reasonable belief that severe bodily injury or death is imminent, I am not required to wait for the attack to begin.

Sometimes you can draw and keep the weapon concealed, in other situations putting your hand on your weapon puts you at an advantage.
 
You'll Know...

That's what my neighbor told me :neener:
And I believe him. He's a former FBI agent. He used to go after and catch fugitives. Now he's a lawyer... so he REALLY seamed like a good person to talk to about legal aspects of SD.

It sucks d00d, i know. We shouldn't worry about those things as much as we do. But then again, branishing is a serious offense. But like he said: You'll Know.
 
Drawing at an inappropriate time can lead to criminal charges of aggravated assault or brandishing.
Click to expand...

Ayoobs books have to take the safe ground since they are read by folks in many states with different laws.

In Texas for example I am covered in drawing my weapon and displaying it as a threat to use force. That is not considered the USE of force to display the weapon, nor is it brandishing under the right circumstances.

So, it will be different for different folks.

That's why you see the advice in those books seem to vary. He's telling you to make up your OWN mind based on your beliefs and what the laws are where you live.

My criteria for when to draw will be very different than someone living in New Jersey.
 
I go with my gut instinct, hasn't failed me yet in 22 years. Closest situation to this that I have been in occured while walking back from work one night. A car with 4 sauced up guys wearing letters (frat boys) ripped past me and slammed to a stop, 4 doors opened and four quite large guys got out. As soon as the car doors opened I drew (situation didn't seem right) and when the guys got out I ducked into the woods line off to my right (road runs right by a wood lot). They were drunk enough that they couldn't find me. I called in to the city cops and got a call back the next morning to come ID the guys, seems they got caught beating the piss out of a skinny chinese dude.
 
I don’t see this as a totally black and white issue. There is a lot of gray area in between. In the face of a threat, I can place my hand on the holstered gun and be a little more ready than I was before, I can draw and leave it down to my side, or I can draw and hold it in the low – ready position. None of these results in my weapon being pointed at anyone, they are merely different stages of readiness.
 
Drawing your weapon and having your weapon out is two different things. I "always" have my pistol in my hand if I think it may be needed. I have stated before I made my mind up a long time ago that if I drew my weapon it was with the intention to shoot and I would have to make a conscious effort not to. That stops the should I shoot or not decision making that can only slow you down.

I always had my weapon out and concealed against my thigh or back if I "thought" there might be problems. If its kept out of site no harm no foul. Most expert fighters who wrote about gunfighting would recomend having the gun out if possible. The only time this practice becomes a liability is if you get into a physical confrontation. If that happens your better off with it holstered. Hope this makes sense.

Jim
 
read my name before reading my reply

the way i see it is: ALWAYS ALWAYS use up all alternatives you have to avoid confrontation. if you get cut off by a car turnaround, or hit reverse and leave , using my car before my gun..not getting out unless completely necessary, whatever the situation requires.......once you have done that then you wont be afraid of unholstering your weapon.

if you have done everything you CAN do but the threat persists then the last resource is needed, unholster and prepare for the worst. if in your mind you know there was no other way out then i assure you you wont doubt about it, and you can proove in court you did everything physically possible to avoid the problem but the guy left you no choice but to use lethal action.

about unholstering to against an already unholstered enemy, well i wouldnt unholster until he/she is distracted or not looking or whatever. do whatever the person says, but as soon as hes close enough or looking another way try to either unholster or jump on the person and throw him down so i can draw or grab his/her arm and do whatever i can....but honestly everything depends on the situation and what is happening or what has happened...all i know is i would rather take the first shot than receiving it
 
Regardless of what decision you make, chances are you'll only have fractions of a second to react. That's why its imperative that you train, train, train for the worst.
 
I don't see this as a difficult decision. Drawing on a subject is a reactionary move. You are in a very different mindset when this happens. Your focus is entirely on the threat. You may be thinking clearly and making good decisions and you may not. If aware of your surroundings you can be preemptive. This is when you have your weapon out and concealed. You are totally aware of your surroundings and frankly instead of reacting to the situation you should be able to control the situation. You should always strive to be in this mode. Awarness is the key, you have better decision making capabilities and you are preforming actions instead of reactions. So when do you draw? When surprised. When do you unholster your weapon? When you sense or become aware of a potential threat.

Jim
 
nice thread and replies. Thanks all.
This thread could be another argument for pocket carry. That way you could have a firing grip on your pistol long before drawing. Very fast draw too. Unlike my cross draw IWB that's under two shirts...
 
I don't see this as a difficult decision. Drawing on a subject is a reactionary move. You are in a very different mindset when this happens. Your focus is entirely on the threat. You may be thinking clearly and making good decisions and you may not. If aware of your surroundings you can be preemptive. This is when you have your weapon out and concealed. You are totally aware of your surroundings and frankly instead of reacting to the situation you should be able to control the situation. You should always strive to be in this mode. Awarness is the key, you have better decision making capabilities and you are preforming actions instead of reactions. So when do you draw? When surprised. When do you unholster your weapon? When you sense or become aware of a potential threat.

I like this mindset above.

If I'm drawing my gun, I'm likely going to shoot someone right then and there [ or I would not be drawing my gun to begin without the need to protect myself from imminent death or great bodily harm ].

If I see trouble brewing, I can back off [ if possible ] and get the gun out of the holster in preparation for some potential threat I perceive might be about to befall me.

As Jim stated, drawing my gun is reactionary, given it is reactionary, I've made the decision to defend myself due to ouside stimulus. As the draw is fast, relatively speaking, and I'll likely not be raising the gun to eye level with my training [ even faster on threat ] there won't be much time for the other party to change their mind before they take a few.

It's going to situationally dependant, but for the most part, the above are the two options available and are based on either being reactionary or preemptive in nature.

I draw the gun when it's go time or I get the weapon in hand preemtively in anticipation of potential go time. Two different mindsets and actions based on two seperate sets of variables.

Brownie
 
I like to have the gun in my hand when things are iffy. If I can draw without others noticing then it cannot possibly be construed as aggrevated assault or brandishing. In Ohio, you're unlikely to face an aggrevated assault charge unless you point the gun at someone. Unless you are somehow otherwise acting in a threatening manner, you can draw the gun as long as you keep it pointed in a safe direction. Even if someone notices, you are unlikely to be convicted of aggrevated assault.

There are other situations when I have drawn with zero risk of an aggrevated assault charge: entering my home if I find a door unlocked or something else suspicious, in my own vehicle if something doesn't look right.

However, in neutral territory my inclination is to put my hand on my gun and gain distance and cover until I can draw without being seen.

Michael Courtney
 
Here in Az, we have open carry. See alot of people with guns on all the time out here.

If I take the gun from my holster and just hold it low keyed, clearly not threatening anyone with it who might notice, it would not be brandishment anyway.

The sight of a gun mioght scare someone, and in fact does out here with the snowbirds who live for 5 or 6 months a year here from other states that don't have this type of carry but when they complain about being nervous with " that man has a gun on over there" calls or some such, there is no problem with most management or police over it.

Brownie
 
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