I have started to reload my 22-250 I used imr 4166 with 32 grains and a seating depth of 2.373.. the groups I get with it are around .5 100 yrds with that load . but when I was shooting it I found that I didn’t get same groups as I did previously nothing on the rifle changed nor did my charge nor my primer or bullets … i was getting around 1.1 or 1.2 at 100 yds today I don’t understand what changed I used h380 with the same charge of 32 grains and got .5 inch that same as the 4166 so I don’t know if it was a metering issue or what
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While possible I don't think the temperature made the difference. Maybe if you were talking about 50-70 degrees difference. When I go to the range I have good days and bad days. On some days I'm on my game and other days I just don't shoot as well. My guess is simply human error.
Or maybe you just got lucky the time you got .5" groups and the load is really a 1.1" load. The best group I've ever shot measured .311", and it was with a pencil thin barreled ultralight hunting rifle that has never shot better than about 1.2" before or since. The rounds I pulled from the box that day just happened to be exactly the same and I got lucky pulling the trigger.
Or maybe you just got lucky the time you got .5" groups and the load is really a 1.1" load. The best group I've ever shot measured .311", and it was with a pencil thin barreled ultralight hunting rifle that has never shot better than about 1.2" before or since. The rounds I pulled from the box that day just happened to be exactly the same and I got lucky pulling the trigger.
bassjam
Member
I've noticed I might shoot drastically different on different days. Sometimes it might be because there hasn't been enough time for caffeine to leave my system after my morning coffee. Other time's I'm rushing without realizing it, and other days I'm just "off" for no seemingly reason.
Other's have touched on temperature affect of the powder. There's also humidity if your gun isn't free floated and has a wood stock. Scope mount screws could be coming loose. Action screw might be loose, or tightened too much. If there's a factory load you trust I suggest putting some rounds down range with it to make sure the issue is with the reloads and not something else.
Other's have touched on temperature affect of the powder. There's also humidity if your gun isn't free floated and has a wood stock. Scope mount screws could be coming loose. Action screw might be loose, or tightened too much. If there's a factory load you trust I suggest putting some rounds down range with it to make sure the issue is with the reloads and not something else.
AJC1
Member
If your testing or having a problem use a standard as a reference. It could be a load that you have used for years and know it inside and out or a factory load that you have a stock of. The same is true of cronograph work, using a standard as a baseline. The only two really comparable things are those done on the same day at the same place. It could be as simple as needing a cleaning or maybe wind conditions are different. Do you use flags.
lordpaxman
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@22-250, welcome to THR!
4166 is one of the newer powders supposedly temperature insensitive so I’d agree it probably isn’t that. You shooting a heavier bullet like 60gr?
There are some days when groups just don’t group like they used to. My excuse is the wind, always, but I know the real reason. There are a lot of reasons but I’d ask if you used some methodology to come up with your load? How many shots in your group? If you weren’t in a node where charge weight was somewhat insensitive, then slight variations in that, coupled with brass and bullet factors can cause a lot of change. You may just shoot again and find all is well. Good luck.
4166 is one of the newer powders supposedly temperature insensitive so I’d agree it probably isn’t that. You shooting a heavier bullet like 60gr?
There are some days when groups just don’t group like they used to. My excuse is the wind, always, but I know the real reason. There are a lot of reasons but I’d ask if you used some methodology to come up with your load? How many shots in your group? If you weren’t in a node where charge weight was somewhat insensitive, then slight variations in that, coupled with brass and bullet factors can cause a lot of change. You may just shoot again and find all is well. Good luck.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
"Every rifle is a law unto itself."
Could have been any or many of the suggestions. Powder burning rate could be a cause since the pressure curves could be different, allowing different barrel vibrations.
All of which is why matches allow four or five sighters before firing for record.
That's why reloaders experiment with possibly a dozen different load combinations, of which I'm sure you're aware.
Humidity was one possible cause not mentioned, but a lot of rifles have plastc stocks nowadays.
ETA: I just noticed someone else mentioned that.
Anyhow, good luck and welcome, .22-250 !
Terry, 230RN
Could have been any or many of the suggestions. Powder burning rate could be a cause since the pressure curves could be different, allowing different barrel vibrations.
All of which is why matches allow four or five sighters before firing for record.
That's why reloaders experiment with possibly a dozen different load combinations, of which I'm sure you're aware.
Humidity was one possible cause not mentioned, but a lot of rifles have plastc stocks nowadays.
ETA: I just noticed someone else mentioned that.
Anyhow, good luck and welcome, .22-250 !
Terry, 230RN
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Jim Watson
Member
How many targets at a time are you talking about?
I am in the school of thought that there is a loose screw behind the buttplate and you just weren't holding as hard.
Or maybe statistics caught up with you and you went from lucky small groups to ordinary groups.
I am in the school of thought that there is a loose screw behind the buttplate and you just weren't holding as hard.
Or maybe statistics caught up with you and you went from lucky small groups to ordinary groups.
Skeptic13
Member
There are some many variables to consider when you are talking about shooting groups. Conditions vary with temperature, wind, humidity and altitude. The loads vary in many ways including powder charge weight, powder lot differences, neck tension, bullet concentricity, case capacity and more. And the ability for the shooter to shoot the same from day to day varies. It use to bother me that if I shot .5 one day and 1.0 the next but now I know that it is just part of the variability of reloading and shooting. Now if my groups went from .5 to 4.0 then I would try to figure it out but .5 difference doesn't bother me. There are a lot of things that you can do on the reloading and shooting side to minimize these variations but for me it is not worth the time and expense since I don't shoot competition or for precision. You have to decide what you comfort level is how much effort you want to put into shooting consistent groups.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Wasn't it Jack O'Connor who said, "I'm only interested in the one-shot group"?
Terry, 230RN
Hondo 60
Member
First of all,, WELCOME TO THR!!!
Barrel temp????
Just my random thought
Barrel temp????
Just my random thought
.308 Norma
Member
I wish I had an answer, instead I have a question - what bullet are you using in your .22-250? I'm only asking because according to my manuals, 32 grains of H380 is a very light load for the average bullet weights used in .22-250s.
Both my wife and I have had excellent results using 38.0 grains of H380 behind Hdy 52gr BTHPs. And according to the manual I have sitting in front of me, 38.0 grains of H380 behind a 52gr bullet is a minimum recommended charge.
Note, I'm not asking about your 32 grains of 4166 loads. I don't have a manual handy that lists 4166 .22-250 loads.
Oh, BTW - Welcome to THR!
stillquietvoice
Contributing Member
@22-250 welcome to the forum.
A question I have is how many times have your cases been fired? If more than 3 have you annealed them? With each firing and reload cycle brass gets work hardened and needs to be heat treated to soften it some for better resizing, and to keep proper neck tension.
How many times do you shoot a month? This season I haven't been to the range much, but when I was shooting o ce a week or more I was much more consistent especially with proper mechanics behind the butt plate. Holding your rifle the same way every time. Same eye position relative to scope eye piece, trigger control, breath control all work together to produce small groups.
I have a 223 bolt action that is an moa rifle, when I. On I might be able to shoot a 15/16 ths group or 2 it's just how that rifle is.
A question I have is how many times have your cases been fired? If more than 3 have you annealed them? With each firing and reload cycle brass gets work hardened and needs to be heat treated to soften it some for better resizing, and to keep proper neck tension.
How many times do you shoot a month? This season I haven't been to the range much, but when I was shooting o ce a week or more I was much more consistent especially with proper mechanics behind the butt plate. Holding your rifle the same way every time. Same eye position relative to scope eye piece, trigger control, breath control all work together to produce small groups.
I have a 223 bolt action that is an moa rifle, when I. On I might be able to shoot a 15/16 ths group or 2 it's just how that rifle is.
Some many answers lol … I am using a nosler tipped varmageddon 55 gr I can get the 50 gr Sierra varmintter to shoot just as well but at a lower charge like 32 grains. It was the best I could get out of the rifle anything more and they open up and thing less and they opend back up …. I first worked up the 4166 back in may of this year got them to shoot great when it was 80 with some humidity and a nice and warm. Barrel not that it is cool and in the 70s I don’t understand why the temperature change would change that . I shoot three shot groups and I shoot two or three sets of them just to double check with a barrel cool down of course . I clean every 10 12 shots that’s when the groups seem to open up . I am a big coyote fox hunter and I love my 22-250 and I want to know that when I take my rifle out when it’s 20 or 80 out that it will shoot the same I haven’t shot for a couple of mouth’s so maybe that has something to do with it idk
Not to be captain obvious question but how many shots did you shoot before calling it a .5 group?
I personally found 40gr vmax and 39g H380 shoots best in my 22-250 but I have a crappy 1:14(?) twist rate. the 50-55grs I could never get a consistent group with with.
I personally found 40gr vmax and 39g H380 shoots best in my 22-250 but I have a crappy 1:14(?) twist rate. the 50-55grs I could never get a consistent group with with.
JFrank
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Where did you get your load data ?
lordpaxman
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I’ll second the question and ask where did you get your load data and how did you develop your current loads? You’re slightly under a starting load for 4166 and way under for H380. What is your reloading process for these, especially powder charge weight?
Do they close back up? Not all barrels shoot great when they’re clean, some do like fouling shots.
You're way outside of recommended data for your bullet weight.
I'm not surprised you're getting inconsistent groups because powder is designed to burn consistently inside a general pressure range.
Outside of that range you get smoky brass, erratic velocities etc.
JFrank
Member
When a load is in the middle of a good node temperature wont make hardly any difference on paper. The opposite is also true.
Why clean every 10-12 rounds? That seems excessive.
I clean every 10 to twelve shots becuses the groups will open back up to inch or so … and after a fouling round I Can get my half inch group back this rifle is just a savage axis with a 1.12 twist I know this rifle will shoot half moa so I want it back to that . I got my reloading data from Hodgkin and I went off of that but the more powder I put in the more they opend up so I found what shoots the best which is 32 grains of 4166 and h380 . Tonight mad made three rounds up and going to try them with 38 grains of h380 and see how they shoot the only thing different is the seating depth I was using 2.350 and couldn’t get that to work I tried a lot of powder and different load weights then I though why not find jam and back off 20 thou every 3 sets of loads till I found my sweet spot which is 2.373 with 32 grains so maybe try this seating depth with different load weights idk I am just looking for some help from someone who has had more experience
JFrank
Member
That is excessive cleaning for any rifle including a 6 PPC
lordpaxman
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That’s good to know. Not knowing how much experience you have reloading has some lingering questions. All guns shoot differently, but using a ladder or OCW method should get you to a accuracy or velocity node, after that you can tweak the jump. There’s also the reloading process itself, do you trickle every charge or just throw it?
If I had a barrel like yours, I’d use a copper cleaning product to see if there was a buildup and then lap it.
stillquietvoice
Contributing Member
Nobler reload Dara website showed 39.5 gr of h380 as the most accurate tested, max charge, with that powder and 55 gr bullet. Nobler data is usually lower than some data sources compared to Hodgens 41.0 gr. I'm not suggesting that you start at their max but their " best load" is a place a lot of loaders find good repeatable results.
I had an axis 2 in 223 rem that would shoot into a half in at 200 yes with a number of different bullets from 50 to 69 gr. At max charges from hodgens data worked up to ensure they were safe, with 3 different powders loaded at 2.245" . Longer coal's than Hodgens suggested 2.2"
Some powders are more sensitive to temp than others h 380 has a 1.44 gps per degree of temperature Fahrenheit that's quite a bit maybe enough to slip you out of best node at your charge, especially being so far under min charge weight.dome powders are also sensitive to position in the case, more so with fast burning pistol powders, but that could be a contributor to your result as well.
I had an axis 2 in 223 rem that would shoot into a half in at 200 yes with a number of different bullets from 50 to 69 gr. At max charges from hodgens data worked up to ensure they were safe, with 3 different powders loaded at 2.245" . Longer coal's than Hodgens suggested 2.2"
Some powders are more sensitive to temp than others h 380 has a 1.44 gps per degree of temperature Fahrenheit that's quite a bit maybe enough to slip you out of best node at your charge, especially being so far under min charge weight.dome powders are also sensitive to position in the case, more so with fast burning pistol powders, but that could be a contributor to your result as well.
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