"Questionable" range moments

[SIRVEYR666]

I know this question should be in the "Competition" section, but I wanted it to get noticed. The Mods can move it...tomorrow...please.

I'm teaching the range portion of an IDPA SO class tomorrow morning, and was in need of some of the questionable and or shaky moments that shooters have had at the line. Noobs and Jedi Masters alike.

I want to have the guys and gals run me through stages, while I do some of the "no-no's" of IDPA. When they catch me, I'll explain the situation and what to watch for, how to correct it, or avoid it all together.

I plan on doing the obvious ones: Finger, Muzzle, Cover, etc. What are some of the things that you've seen, that you think would be good teaching points?

I will be role-playing three characters: Nancy Noobie, Billie Bada$$, and Mr. I can out-shoot Rob Leatham.

Any suggestions?

 

[SIRVEYR666]

Why do all of you hate me?

I just want to be accepted. Please post. It makes me happy.

 

[Outlaws]

So you are going to violate a rule or two to see if someone notices?

Sounds like a brilliant idea. Just don't shoot yourself...or anyone else.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Do it with a drone gun, OK?

 

[Hemicuda]

PURPOSELY violating 1 or more of the 4 rules? it isn't that anyone hates you, it is that we here have a tendency to try to NEVER violate any of the rules ourselves, and TRY to help with and enforce those same rules with others...

looking to THR for help violating the 4 rules? not your best place to go looking for that...

 

[kd7nqb]

I would do it differently

dont make them watch for 4 rules violation because thats real danger unless you use a drone gun. BUT what about a bad grip that puts your hand in the way of a slide.

 

[Ed Ames]

Look up "Primacy Effect" before you start any sort of "don't do this" demonstrations. Said simply, people tend to remember the first things they are shown/taught and forget later examples/lessons... so if you demonstrate the wrong way to do something and then show the right way, they'll remember the wrong way. Too many would-be educators (many of whom should know better) start off by showing or describing a bunch of common mistakes and then say "what you should do is ________." :banghead:

A better strategy, if you must play that game, is to teach them all the right stuff, them at the end say something like, "Now I'm going to go through this with a dummy gun and I want you guys to call out whenever I violate one of the rules I just taught you."

 

[ProguninTN]

Safety Instruction

You may not want to do the wrong thing yourself. As an instructor, you do not want to confuse students or be perceived as a hypocrite. For an example of what not do, why not look here ?

http://idiotswithguns.blogspot.com/

This is a page run by THR moderator XavierBreath. You could select a picture and then ask the class "What's wrong here ?" (They could then indicate which safety rule or rules are being violated.

 

[pax]

Make sure your students know that their primary job is to watch your hands.

SOs don't need to watch the targets; the holes will be there, or not, when you are done shooting. They don't need to watch the paperwork or timer; the timer will do its job, or not, and the paperwork can be fiddled with when you are done shooting. Their job is to watch your hands. Everything else is gravy.

pax

 

[Dr. Dickie]

The only time I have seen problems are:
When moving behind cover (which is up range). Obviouly not keeping muzzle downrange as it is natural to turn in the direction of movement (that got the guy sent home for the day); though to his credit, they said he had his finger outside the tigger.
In a similar vein, when seat facing across the range (where you will draw and turn downrange). Very easy and natural to let the muzzle cross 180.
The big one is muzzle direction while clearing a failure. When someone gets a FTF or FTE, they are concentrating on the removing the failure, and the muzzle can go all over the place (I have been guilty of this, although in my defense it was straigh up in the air--still a violation).

 

[Jack19]

I've never had an instuctor intentionally violate one of the four rules to demonstrate what not to do. Show them safe and proper methods and that is what your students will remember.

Endangering them or yourself to make a point strikes me as extremely irresponsible. I'd be very unhappy if you swept a muzzle over a class I attended....and you'd know it.

 

[massad ayoob]

Consider bringing an assistant with a dummy gun (Ring's, etc) to act out mistakes, with you in the role of the SO showing how to be in position to spot them, catch them, block them, etc. That way no one gets crossed with an actual firearm.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I cannot stress the 180 rule enough. Watch the 180 rule like a HAWK!

 

[SIRVEYR666]

Holy Crap!

I guess I should have worded my question differently. I was in no way going to intentionally violate any of "The 4"...with a real gun!

I guess I was looking for IDPA rule infractions that often happen,but are not real obvious. Things that the average shooter would not notice.

Oh well...maybe I don't know what I'm asking. It's over and it went well. Everyone did great. I think that they learned a lot. SO'ing is not as easy as they thought it was.

I forgot to check my post last night and this morning.:banghead:

 

[Owen]

Recently I watched a USPSA RO holster someones pistol for them. You may want to point out why that's a really bad idea.

 

[distra]

I cannot stress the 180 rule enough. Watch the 180 rule like a HAWK!

+1000 on that one. I recently became an RSO at our club and we run IDPA style matches. I have not seen anyone break the 180 rule. If your scenerio requires it or can not be completed without breaking 180, then change the scenerio. It is that simple. Running to cover either up range or down range can be done without breaking the 180 rule. We do seated stage facing across the range and don't break the 180 rule mainly because our instructions include "Don't draw until you face down range" or we place the firearm on a bench next to the chair such that the muzzle is always canted enought to not break the rule. That's one violation that will get you removed from the range.

 

[jcc2]

I thought he said IDPA...

Please, don´t get me wrong... I am 200% about safe gun handling at all times, no matter what kind of shooting you are doing but I thought we were talking IDPA here, and if my memory serves me right, in IDPA there are "Designated Muzzle Safe Points" but NO actual 180 degreee rule as you have in IPSC and USPSA...

Please correct me if I am wrong....

Stay safe,

Juan Carlos

 

[Rabid Rabbit]

As an instructor and coach I've discovered that you should never demonstrate the wrong way to do anything. Why bring attention and spend time on the wrong way? You barely have enough time to get the right way drilled into the student.

 

[Flopsy]

So you're going to purposely set a bad example?

And you are posting this idea on the Internet?

I dunno man...no offense but I'm not sure I'd want to take your class.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

Flopsy

I guess I should have worded my question differently. I was in no way going to intentionally violate any of "The 4"...with a real gun!

I thought that I already clarified that I was not going to be unsafe.

I guess I was looking for IDPA rule infractions that often happen,but are not real obvious. Things that the average shooter would not notice.

I was looking for "rule" infractions that go may go unnoticed. I just suck at wording questions. Sorry. I won't post for a few days as my punishment, for not fully thinking out my question before I submitted my post.


All this hostility from a fellow Glock shooter. Cut me some slack, dude.


Maybe we can all just let this stupid thread die now. I guess I'd rather forget it.

 

[Correia]

Guys, calm down. He was teaching an SO class for IDPA, not an NRA first steps class for ten year olds.

And there is a time and a place to demonstrate the wrong way to do things. BECAUSE THE SAFETY OFFICERS JOB IS TO SPOT AND STOP THE WRONG THINGS!!!!

If you are trying to teach a safety officer, where is the challenge when they are SOing the "perfect" shooter.

Also I would hope that anybody with half a brain would use a fake gun for stuff like this. That goes without saying.

Consider it roleplaying, and get off the man's back.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Correia said: Consider it roleplaying, and get off the man's back.

I agree. We do the same for new RO's during work-ups for the NTI. Just use red guns. It gets us accustomed to watching for the signs and symptoms of a problem as it unfolds, and how we can intercede.