Questions about 223 on a progressive machine

[fair-chase]

I have recently gotten into shooting an ar so I'll be needing to reload some 223. I've reloaded rifle cartridges on a single stage and pistol on a progressive machine for years. I have never reloaded for the ar.

Due to volume and limited time it would be nice to load the 223 on the progressive loader. The snags I'm running into in my mind are with case prep.

1. Case trimming some say this needs to be done every time for the ar. Does it I don't know ? If so I could possibly get around this issue with an X die. I've heard yea and naa on the x dies what are your opinions ? I have no experience with the x dies , but without an expander ball or changable bushings I would think you could run into consistant neck tension issues especially with different mfg of brass.

2. Primer pockets. I've never cleaned them for pistol ammo , and always for rifle ammo. Now keep in mind single stage so far for rifle. 20 -100 rifle cases don't take long. If this is going to be a true progressive operation this step will have to be skipped. Is it necessary or benifical?

 

[dmazur]

I've reloaded .243 on a Dillon 550B.

I had trouble with spray-on lubes with stuck cases. When I switched to RCBS lube on a lube-pad, that problem stopped but then I got powder bridging at the case mouth.

I'm sure there is some magic way to use a progressive with bottleneck cartridges, but I haven't found it.

I just gave up and do the case prep as a "break out" operation after resizing/repriming at station 1. Then I can check for headspace, trim length, wipe off excess lube. Any that need trimming get it, but I've found that I can go a little shorter with an initial trim and get 4 or 5 loadings between trims.

Then I just resume progressive loading, reinserting the case at station 1, but I index before pulling the handle. (This simply skips the resizing die and allows me to leave the toolhead set up.)

I do an initial primer pocket uniform cut with a Sinclair tool, but after that I don't bother cleaning primer pockets.

 

[jmorris]

Loading with your case preparation exclusively on a progressive, your only option is the Dillon trimmer and you would trim every time. Every round might not need to be trimmed but the point of a progressive is to speed up the process and not have to handle each round by hand. It’s faster to crank the handle than case gauge the brass. The X die might be of some help if you are certain where each piece of brass you reload came from, if you ever have any mix you will be back to either checking each one or running them all through the trim process.

Cleaning primer pockets is not a necessary step; however, with .223 you will come across crimped primer pockets and the only progressive press that swages them as part of the reloading process is the Dillon 1050.

Even in the best of circumstances it still takes at least two passes through progressive machines to load, trim and swage .223. Beyond that you can have many operations either manually or with other tools/machines to prepare brass for loading.

 

[fair-chase]

Good points.

I have 2 kinds of brass pmc and LC. Each is segragated . Both were bought new and only shot through my rifle. Neither has crimped primers. Thinking this could work with the x die.

 

[Walkalong]

I run all the .223 brass through my LNL to size them. Then I tumble to remove lube, then I trim, deburre, & chamfer them. Then I tumble them for a very short time again. Then I hand prime them. Then I run them through the LNL again to load. I don't worry about the extra time.

If I was shooting 10's of thousands in competition, I would probably get a Dillon 650, or an LNL with a case feeder, but I don't.

I can't see loading trimmed brass without deburring and chamfering it. After trimming, some brass have a lot of extra hanging onto the sharp case mouth. I don't want to load it like that, so I can't see using the Dillon trimmer and loading at the same time. Maybe it does such a good job of trimming there is no brass that needs to be removed from the case mouth. Maybe a user can chime in. ( A pic would be great)

I would still run the brass through twice unless the Dillon left no remnants on the case mouth, but that would speed things up a little.

 

[Hondo 60]

OK, I'll ask the dumb question.
What's an X die?

 

[Walkalong]

It is supposed to stop the case from getting longer so you don't have to trim. I have never used one. (They were not around many years ago when I bought my .223 dies) Folks here who have them speak very highly of them.

.223 X-Die @ Midway

 

[mongoose33]

The X-die controls the growth of the case as it's resized and the caseneck resized w/ the expander ball.

You start out by resizing the brass in the X-die, then trim to 1.74 (yes, .01 less than the normal spec).

Chamfer and deburr, then you're good to go.

I'm currently up to 9 reloadings on .223 brass run through the X-die. It's quite remarkable how it restrains the brass growth.

After the 9th reloading, I had three neck splits (out of 37 cases). I've since reloaded the remaining 34 (this is a long term experiment : ), and maybe I'll get out to shoot 'em this week.

Walkalong had asked at one point about case life; it'll be interesting to see if circa 10 reloads is the number or what.

I've been reading a lot here on annealing, which I'm sure would, if done properly, extend case life even more. But I can't find what I'd consider to be a good method in which I could have great confidence.

BTW, you can use the X-Die to progressively load .223, in conjunction w/ the RCBS lube die (which has a decapping pin in it). You can see how that's done here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqPJJinDr8Q

 

[dc.fireman]

I use a Dillon 1050, and have loaded about 1500-1600 rounds of .223 on it. The case were only once fired, and collected by me from the past 3 years of shooting. After separating the cases by .223 and the LC cases into 5.56, is then ran all of the cases through the dillon case gauge, to see how bad off they were. None were even close to the 'no-go' region on the case gauge, so I resized, decapped, swaged, etc. etc., crossing my fingers, and hoping they weren't going to come out too long. They didn't, and I got lucky, I suppose. I am anticipating having to trim them the next time around, so now I'm in the market for a trimmer, but not really looking forward to trimming 1500-1600 cases by hand. FWIW, I can crank them out realistically to the tune of about 100 every 10-12 minutes, before I need to refill the primer magazine, and the bullet tray. I've broken it down (and thats a 30 minute job, realistically), twice now for cleaning, and surprisingly, wasn't overly dirty.

I use the Dillon spray lube, and DIllon dies in it, the only primers I've used in it are the CCI 400's. I've been happy with it so far, but it does require some adjusting of the settings. I've had some minor problems with it, but none that stopped the press from working.

I'd be interested to see/hear of some other users ideas for trimming, because I'm going to have to face that problem soon.

-tc

 

[jmorris]

If I was shooting 10's of thousands in competition, I would probably get a Dillon 650, or an LNL with a case feeder, but I don't.

I can't see loading trimmed brass without deburring and chamfering it. After trimming, some brass have a lot of extra hanging onto the sharp case mouth. I don't want to load it like that, so I can't see using the Dillon trimmer and loading at the same time. Maybe it does such a good job of trimming there is no brass that needs to be removed from the case mouth. Maybe a user can chime in. ( A pic would be great)

I generally don’t load 10k at a time but will spend a few hours and load 2-5k at a time. I use a 650 to trim and a 1050 to load. If you keep the carbide cutter indexed it leaves a burr free cut; however, I run the case through two additional size/expand dies after trimming. One on #5 before it leaves the 650 and another on station #2 on the 1050 (the 1050 also has yet another expander on #3) all of this ensures that the case is well ironed out before it’s topped with a bullet. Here are three cases sized and trimmed and ran through the #5 size/expand die, they are ready to go, the other two on the 1050 are just insurance.

I've been reading a lot here on annealing, which I'm sure would, if done properly, extend case life even more. But I can't find what I'd consider to be a good method in which I could have great confidence.

For the annealing process I built this machine so the process is done correctly and consistently.

 

[GW Staar]

Probably the most efficient way I've seen to load .223 progressively is a method used by a pro who loads bucket loads of .223 every week to quality control test for his AR-15 barrel production. In his own words, "I don't deburr flash holes, clean primer pockets, uniform primer pockets, turn case necks or weigh cases/bullets" (for his use its not necessary. He's not making competition fodder).

In a nut shell he has two presses set up, a Dillon 650, and a 1050. Step 1 is tumbling brass clean. Step 2, on the 650 he has an RCBS lube die in station one, that deprimes and lubes the case followed by a Dillon trimmer, mounted in station 2, that sizes and trims the brass. Cases rotate on and drop into a 5 gallon bucket. Step 3 he tumbles again for 15 minutes to remove the lube. Step 4 on the 1050 he dumps brass into the shell collator/feeder, then "rods" the primer hole, swages, primes, charges, seats, and crimps.

Obviously you can do that on one press in two separate operations, if your funds are limited, like most of us amateurs, minus the swager of course, but even this duel press system requires two separate press operations.

The real time saving advantage to this method is no case prep or lubing is required off the press. According to the pro, the Dillon trimmer trims so smoothly, that chamfering, and deburring after trimming isn't necessary, and the 15 minute tumble of the brass after lubing, trimming, and resizing, takes enough of the sharp edge off the trim, that bullets seat easily and are undamaged. Of course the lube is tumbled away as well and allows him to feed "clean" brass to his 1050, and its collator/feeder stays clean, not having lubed brass dumped in to gum things up eventually. You can read his whole thread if you want Here.

I wonder if one could mount the Dillon Trimmer and a Lube Die on a Lee Classic Turret and run all your brass through those steps there. Then use your progressive to finish it??? Don't know if the turret stations are far enough apart to allow anything other than the trimmer to be mounted, though? That press is pretty inexpensive...if its turret is big enough, it should work shouldn't it? Well, if you're willing to lever the press twice per case that is.

The second progressive operation can be done with any progressive, except that unless you have a 1050, swaging will slow you down as it has to be done off press...luckily it only has to be done the first time.

 

[jmorris]

The above might seem like unnecessary equipment or over kill but it is the best process I have come up with to produce quality ammunition, in large quantities, quickly.

 

[fair-chase]

The X-die controls the growth of the case as it's resized and the caseneck resized w/ the expander ball.

You start out by resizing the brass in the X-die, then trim to 1.74 (yes, .01 less than the normal spec).

Chamfer and deburr, then you're good to go.

I'm currently up to 9 reloadings on .223 brass run through the X-die. It's quite remarkable how it restrains the brass growth.

After the 9th reloading, I had three neck splits (out of 37 cases). I've since reloaded the remaining 34 (this is a long term experiment : ), and maybe I'll get out to shoot 'em this week.

Walkalong had asked at one point about case life; it'll be interesting to see if circa 10 reloads is the number or what.

I've been reading a lot here on annealing, which I'm sure would, if done properly, extend case life even more. But I can't find what I'd consider to be a good method in which I could have great confidence.

BTW, you can use the X-Die to progressively load .223, in conjunction w/ the RCBS lube die (which has a decapping pin in it). You can see how that's done here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqPJJinDr8Q

so does the case mouth chamfer remain intact after using the x die ?

 

[fair-chase]

OK here is what I'm thinking now. First go around full length resize , trim to x die specs , debur , chamfer, and set x die.


From then on.

1. tumble
2. dillon spray lube

Into the progressive

1. X die to size
2. prime
3. charge
4. seat
5. FCD if desired

Wipe remaining lube off loaded rounds with rag.

Wouldn't this work ?

 

[cheygriz]

I like to wash, dry, spray lube, size/decap, wash/dry again, and guage to see if trimming is necessary. Usually, I only need to trim every third or fourth loading. (I've never had a stuck case with Dillon spray lube, but I have had with Hornady one-shot.)

Then trim and deburr if necessary.

Once your brass is sized, cleaned, and trimmed/deburred, load it on the
Dillon just like pistol cases.

One caveat: If you tumble in walnut or corncobs tro clean, buy an RCBS Universal Decapping Die, and place it in the size die slot in the tool head to knock debris from tumbling out of the flash-holes before getting to the priming stage.

 

[medalguy]

Fair-chase, I think you have some steps out of order. Tumble after sizing. Here's what I do:

First lube cases with any method you want, spray or soaked rag in a bag

In Dillon 450 press
1. Deprime
2. Size and trim in power trimmer

Tumble cases to remove lube and remove any material from sharp edges of case mouth.

For crimped primers only, swage in Dillon swager.

Prime cases in RCBS Auto Prime which allows a final case inspection step.

In Dillon 650 press
1. Charge with powder
2. Seat bullet
3. Crimp case if required

 

[Clifford]

Reading this reminds me why I haven't picked up an AR-15 yet! I load .223 for a bolt gun. On my Dillon 450 I first size & deprime. Next I trim all cases and de-burr off of the press. Next the brass goes back on the 450 and I prime then flare. The brass comes back off of the press where I throw charges on a lee measure. After all that the brass goes back on the 450 and I seat and crimp.

 

[cheygriz]

Jjust for the sake of my curiousity, why take the prepared cases off of the Dillon to seat primers or charge with powder????

 

[Idano]

I have been reloading .223 on progressive presses for about eight years. I started out on a Lee LoadMaster and migrated to a Hornady L-n-L four years ago. I also use the RCBS X-die for resizing and use the Possum Hollow Kwick Case trimmer in conjunction with a RCBS deburring tool in my drill press (Sinclair and Midway sell a drill bit adaptor that holds the deburring tool or Possum Hollow Kwick Case trimmer) for the initial trim. I'll run the cases through the trimmer again after about ten reloads, some will have grown to reach the cutter other won't. I have always resized my brass after I get done shooting on my single stage press; I just don't want the lube in my case feeder or drop tubes. I have an RCBS Case Kicker on my Rock Chucker that really expedites the single stage resizing. I usually keep about 3000 rounds loaded so I only reload when I have a 1000 rounds or more to reload, it's not worth my time to do it in smaller batches. This is my process flow:

1. Tumble {50/50 Corn and Walnut}
2. Lube
3. Resize {single stage press for bottle neck cartridges only, straight wall gets resized on the progressive}
4. Clean Primer pockets
5. Tumble bottle neck cartridges to get the lube off {Lizard bedding (crushed walnut) only}
6. Store until I am ready to reload.

I am not a high volume shooter. This year I have only shot 2000 rounds since February and with ground squirrel season is coming to an end, the grass is getting too tall, I doubt I'll shoot much more .223 this year unless it is at coyotes or a wolf. If you shoot more my process may not work out so well for you, but it works great for me.

 

[Walkalong]

Most excellent jmorris. Those case mouths look great. No reson not to load them as they are.

 

[fair-chase]

Fair-chase, I think you have some steps out of order. Tumble after sizing. Here's what I do:

First lube cases with any method you want, spray or soaked rag in a bag

In Dillon 450 press
1. Deprime
2. Size and trim in power trimmer

Tumble cases to remove lube and remove any material from sharp edges of case mouth.

For crimped primers only, swage in Dillon swager.

Prime cases in RCBS Auto Prime which allows a final case inspection step.

In Dillon 650 press
1. Charge with powder
2. Seat bullet
3. Crimp case if required

No steps out of order. First tumble is to clean and polish brass. This happens to ALL of my brass before entering my dies. This is not to remove case lube. That was what the rag at the end of the process was for.

 

[Walkalong]

First tumble is to clean and polish brass

Yep. Polish/clean it all before it is sized.

 

[jmorris]

From then on.

1. tumble
2. dillon spray lube

Into the progressive

1. X die to size
2. prime
3. charge
4. seat
5. FCD if desired

Wipe remaining lube off loaded rounds with rag.

Wouldn't this work ?

Yes, that will work. Along with 10,000 the other variations that all of us do. I personally would add a #6 that is to case gauge the completed rounds, although I never did before I shot competitively.