Questions about gun schools...

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Balrog

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I would like some input here from people who have been to gun training courses.

Let me explain my situation, and my goals. I am in my early 40s and have been shooting and hunting all my life. I was taught by my dad, but never anything official, and have done a good bit of reading on shooting over the years. I am a decent shot with a pistol, understand basic safety, etc. I have a pistol permit. I am relatively physically fit. I have not served in the military, nor do I have law enforcement experience. I am a physician by profession.

I am looking for information regarding defensive pistol courses. My goals are to learn more about shooting techniques and drills, things that would be more realistic than just shooting at still targets at the range. I do not want to end up in a class full of Navy Seals and Special Forces guys, mainly because I think they would be way above my skill level. I am also not wanting to end up at a course full of Navy Seal wannabees.

So, with that said, what courses are best suited for someone with basic gun skills, but no formal training?

I was thinking about doing the NRA basic pistol course, but am not sure about the curriculum. If this course is just basic safety and how to operate a pistol, I might not be interested, as I think I have that knowledge already. But maybe I should do it, just not sure.

Any information you can provide would be helpful.
 
Balrog said:
I would like some input here from people who have been to gun training courses.

Let me explain my situation, and my goals. I am in my early 40s and have been shooting and hunting all my life. I was taught by my dad, but never anything official, and have done a good bit of reading on shooting over the years. I am a decent shot with a pistol, understand basic safety, etc. I have a pistol permit. I am relatively physically fit. I have not served in the military, nor do I have law enforcement experience. I am a physician by profession.

I am looking for information regarding defensive pistol courses. My goals are to learn more about shooting techniques and drills, things that would be more realistic than just shooting at still targets at the range. I do not want to end up in a class full of Navy Seals and Special Forces guys, mainly because I think they would be way above my skill level. I am also not wanting to end up at a course full of Navy Seal wannabees.

So, with that said, what courses are best suited for someone with basic gun skills, but no formal training?

I was thinking about doing the NRA basic pistol course, but am not sure about the curriculum. If this course is just basic safety and how to operate a pistol, I might not be interested, as I think I have that knowledge already. But maybe I should do it, just not sure.

Any information you can provide would be helpful.
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Honestly the NRA Basic Pistol course probably isnt what you are looking for. The only two NRA courses that offer what you are looking for would be the Personal Protection Outside the Home and the Personal Protection Inside the Home courses. Even those offer what many view as "watered-down" material.

You would probably do well in a normal defensive style handgun course taught by people like Randy Cain, Larry Vickers, etc. Where do you live? I, or others here, might be able to help you locate something close to your location.
 
I am in Florida, but don't mind travelling, even a long way... it would be part vacation/part class.
 
As far as the NRA courses, NCPatrolAR is right on the money. And I've heard good things about Larry Vickers.

As to not wanting to be with a group of high speed, low drag types beyond your skill level, or a group of wannabees, that should not be an issue with the major schools and instructors. At least that's been my experience. I try to take classes regularly, and they've always consisted of a reasonable cross section. My class some years ago at Gunsite, for example, included a number of law enforcement but also a couple of engineers, a couple of young people with little experience, an orthopedic surgeon and yours truly, a short, fat, old and then not yet retired lawyer.

As far as specific recommendation, I'm afraid I'm not personally familiar with anything out your way. But if you wouldn't mind traveling to Arizona, Gunsite would be an outstanding choice. I've taken two classes, handgun and rifle, there.

I also understand that Massad Ayoob will be having a class in the Tucson, Arizona area in May. I took one of his classes about a year ago and think it would be a great first class for someone who carries a gun. His focus is the legal issues associated with self defense -- 60% or so of the class is devoted to that with the rest of the time on the range.

Edit: Corrected the location for Massad Ayoob's upcoming class.
 
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I am in Florida, but don't mind travelling, even a long way... it would be part vacation/part class.
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It seems to me you are looking for something along the lines of Gunsite or Thunder Ranch.

There are many others but those are 2 big ones. A week long class on site sounds like what you are after.
 
I had thought about Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, but am a little intimidated by them since I have had no formal training. As I said, I have been shooting a long time, and am thus not totally clueless, but at the same time, have no formal shooting education. I don't want to be totally outclassed by other students. What kind of people go to Gunsite and Thunder Ranch?
 
things that would be more realistic than just shooting at still targets at the range.
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this is a fairly common belief, most shooters think they are ready to progress beyond fundamentals. but many are confusing Basic with Fundamental.

a Fundamental classes goal would be for you to put rounds on target, at a high rate of speed and continue to do so on demand. if you aren't at that level yet, you aren't really ready to move onto tactics...well you may be ready, but you won't get as much out of the class

a good Fundamental class would address grip, stance and trigger control. you'd also learn speedy reloading, target transitions and shooting on the move. with these skills, you can go into any shooting school and get the most out of it without fear of holding the class back.

i would recommend that you take a look at link

i should say that i'm not a completely uninterested person in these courses...i've been teaching with Bruce Gray for a couple of years
 
a Fundamental classes goal would be for you to put rounds on target, at a high rate of speed and continue to do so on demand. if you aren't at that level yet, you aren't really ready to move onto tactics...well you may be ready, but you won't get as much out of the class
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Can you be more specific?

I certainly do not want to go to a more advanced class than I should. That would be a waste of time and money, as well as be frustrating and potentially embarassing.

So, my question is, what are the specific goals of a fundamental course? I can hit a 4-5" circle at 25 yards consistently shooting with a two hand isoceles or weaver style hold. I have never timed myself, so I am not sure how fast I am. I think I could do a round a second, but I am certainly not able to dump a full mag in a couple of seconds into a 4-5
" circle, but could probably keep the mag on a man sized sillouette at that speed and distance. I have also never tried or done speed reloads.
 
Balrog said:
had thought about Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, but am a little intimidated by them since I have had no formal training. As I said, I have been shooting a long time, and am thus not totally clueless, but at the same time, have no formal shooting education. I don't want to be totally outclassed by other students. What kind of people go to Gunsite and Thunder Ranch?
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Based on my experiences at Gunsite, I don't think you have to worry about it. As I mentioned earlier that classes I've been in, and at Gunsite in particular, have included students with a fairly wide range of past training and experience from very little experience to a fair amount.

When I took the pistol class, I had some years club level IPSC competition under my belt but little formal training. When I took the rifle class, I was very much a novice with a rifle.

In each case, the classes I took were the entry level, five day, classes. So we started from scratch. The instructor were outstanding and very professional.

My experiences at Gunsite have been exceptional, and I heartily recommend it.
 
It seems to me you are looking for something along the lines of Gunsite or Thunder Ranch.
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Agreed. You've just described most of us. Your level of training and proficiency is head and shoulders above many shooters.

I've not been to Gunsite or TR - and am not sure if I want/need to go. Common sense, reading, education, and street smarts are a good thing. I'm sure that many "class" graduates will tell you how screwed up I am, but that's my two cents.

I'd consider a Gunsite or TR course - but would take either with a healthy dose of skepticism. But that's just me. Could I learn something there? Without a doubt. Have I learned much of what they teach through my life experience? Likely.

My $0.02.
 
Balrog said:
...So, my question is, what are the specific goals of a fundamental course?...
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The 250 (Handgun) class at Gunsite is oriented toward the Modern Technique of the Pistol. Most of the shooing is done at 5, 7 and 10 yards.

When I was there, we started with basics -- Weaver stance, flash sight picture and smooth, controlled trigger press. We then went to learning presentation from the holster, then presentation combined with firing a single shot and then multiple shot strings. Then we went into speed reloads, tactical reloads and malfunction clearance.

This is all done over several days. Each new skill was taught from scratch, assuming no prior experience. Each new skill was broken down into component steps and taught "by the numbers." Initial drills in each new skill were performed slowly to build smoothness. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Ultimately we started to put things together and shoot under time pressure. Par for the basic drill, draw and fire two rounds center of mass at 7 yards, was 1.5 seconds. We went through other timed drills at various target distances, and they were manageable for everyone -- even one fat, old lawyer.

At the end of the class, we were doing a number of timed drills, including some steel, reactive targets. Each of us also had two runs through an indoor simulator (shoot house) and an outdoor course.

But the sort of moral of this story really is that the course would be doable even for someone who have never held a pistol before. Going into the class, you don't need to know how to shoot fast, how to draw from a holster, how to do a speed reload or a tactical reload. All of that will be taught to you. (And if you knew how to do those things going into the class, you would learn to do them better.)
 
What kind of people go to Gunsite and Thunder Ranch?
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I saw every kind of shooter when I took a TR class, at least at TR when it was still in Texas. I wouldn't worry about limited experience there.

Could I learn something there? Without a doubt. Have I learned much of what they teach through my life experience? Likely.
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Sure you can learn it just through life experience, but you can quite possibly shave off years of learning time in a week. Personally that's the value I see in these kinds of courses, a quick distilling of years of experience into a very short time frame.
 
Recommendation

I was in your same boat and decided to take a two day defense handgun course with Tiger McKee at Shootrite Firearms Academy located in Langston, Ala ( Near Huntsville). I did this course with my wife and daughter. Private instruction is the best way to go based on my experience. You can read all about Tiger and Shootrite at www.shootrite.org.

Tiger is first rate and is a close friend and associate of Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch). Tiger is also a regular on the TV Show - Personal Defense TV with Tom Gresham.

The reason I am so positive about using Tiger to address your training needs is the manner in which he conducts training. My wife who was scared to death was a real believer after two days with Tiger.

Bottom Line - Many folks out there will claim to be good at this sort of thing. Tiger clearly gets my vote.
 
That sounds like what I am talking about, Fiddletown.

What kind of people were the other students at Gunsite? How old? Were they in military or law enforcement?
 
Balrog said:
...What kind of people were the other students at Gunsite? How old? Were they in military or law enforcement?
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As best as I can remember (I took the pistol class in 2001), they ranged in age from about 20 to the mid 60s. Several were law enforcement, including two patrol officers from Sheridan, Wyoming and a couple of Customs officers from Las Vegas. One was a Marine captain. One was a retired electrical engineer. Two were college students. One was an orthopedic surgeon.

The guys in the rifle class (2006) were mostly in their mid-40s to mid-50s. Two were game wardens from Alaska, and one was a real estate broker. Another was a maxillofacial surgeon.

That's the best of my recollection, and I know in each case I've left some folks out. But overall, everyone fell into the "just plain folks" category -- no high speed, low drag operatives or Captain Midnight Commando wannabees.
 
So, my question is, what are the specific goals of a fundamental course? I can hit a 4-5" circle at 25 yards consistently shooting with a two hand isoceles or weaver style hold. I have never timed myself, so I am not sure how fast I am. I think I could do a round a second, but I am certainly not able to dump a full mag in a couple of seconds into a 4-5
" circle, but could probably keep the mag on a man sized sillouette at that speed and distance. I have also never tried or done speed reloads.
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sorry it took me a while to answer your question...had an errand

we do most of our shooting a bit closer than 25 yards...usually 10-15 yards

we most shoot on the IPSC target and the goal is to place all your shots in the "A" zone at a rate of between 2 to 3 rounds per sec..{.2 splits (time between shots) would win most matches}

i think our oldest student was a WW II vet and out youngest was a 12 year old girl...i had to come up with a alternative way for her to do mags changes as he fingers were a bit short.

we have had LEO and IDPA competitiors (they'd hit a plateau) as well as just folks who wanted to learn to shoot right before developing bad habits. it seems a lot of out students are engineers and doctors.

you won't be able to do a one sec. reload (you will be able to do it in under 2 sec.), but by the third day we do have all the students cut a card in half edgewise.

we don't shoot for groups because it isn't an objective oriented class and much as a process class.

what you leave with are skills you can practice at home to continue to improve

The big difference between Bruce and Gunsite and Thunder Ranch is that Bruce takes his class on the road...I think he's going to the Orlando area in the Spring or... you can visit him up in OR, he's up the road from Thunder Ranch
 
But overall, everyone fell into the "just plain folks" category -- no high speed, low drag operatives or Captain Midnight Commando wannabees.
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Thats what I was hoping. I certainly do not want to be in a class made up of Special Forces guys who will shame me, nor do I want to be in a class of wannabee commando ninjas.
 
If you are in Florida, I suggest you look at the Southern Exposure training center (www.southernexposuretraining.com). Irv brings a lot of great instructors in to include guys like Kyle Lamb, Bill Jeans, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, etc. With guys like Randy and Bill, you can get the Gunsite experience without having to travel out to Gunsite itself.
 
Balrog said:
So, with that said, what courses are best suited for someone with basic gun skills, but no formal training?
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Don't leave out Front Sight in Nevada, about an hour outside of Vegas.

Number of folks don't much care for the owners marketing methods, but no one that has -actually been there- has anything but praise for their training. It's top notch, and will deal happily with all realms of the training experience spectrum.
 
Agree with sjmills6901 - Tiger is certainly a great teacher and is sort of "Thunder Ranch east". Tiger has an easy teaching style and is a great guy. The area (NE Alabama) is very scenic.
 
+1 for Shootrite. Tiger wrote "The Book of Two Guns" and really knows his stuff. They have expanded their program recently, check out the link in sjmills6901 post above. I live only twenty minutes from there....lucky me!
 
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