Questions about my rig for you bolt gun guys

[TonyAngel]

This is my SPS Tactical....


I'm starting to have a real love/hate relationship with it. I got it about a month or so ago. On my first couple of range trips I was shooting .6 and .8" groups with it using what has become my standard load. If the number of empty bullet boxes on my bench is accurate, I have about 800 rounds through it so far.

On my last range visit, I was killing myself just to shoot a MOA group. I have been cleaning my rifle after every range trip (about 200 rounds) using Butch's Bore Shine, which is suppose to remove everything including copper. Well, after the latest range trip, I cleaned it and took a good look down the bore. I could see a layer of copper embedded in the grooves. I've never seen that much copper in a barrel before.

I'm coming over to bolt guns from ARs. I build my ARs myself and have always used either chrome lined (for carbines) or high quality, hand lapped barrels (for precision builds). I gone literally over a 1000 rounds with my precision AR without having any issues with copper. This bolt gun had me stunned.

Anyway, I scrubbed the ever livin' crud out of the barrel, used three different copper solvents and finally, I don't see anymore copper.

Is it normal to get that kind of copper buildup? Is there anything that I can do to fix it? Should I lap the barrel? If so, how?

I've also been contemplating getting either a new rifle or having this one rebarreled. After having seen the results that gglass got with his Police Model, I'm thinking that it might be the most cost effective way to go. Since Remington guarantees MOA accuracy with that rifle, I've gotta figure that the action has been trued and that there is something more to the barrel than just being a plain jane barrel.

If I get my rifle done, I'll need to get the action trued, the barrel replaced and have my scope mount holes redrilled straight (mine are way off center).

What do you guys think? Will having mine worked on be worth it or will just getting the Police model do the trick? Being new to bolt guns, I'm just not sure of what direction to go in.

BTW, do any of you know anything about the Bergara drop in barrels that come with the conversion to the Savage style of barrel nut? That looks interesting and not too expensive either.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I did pick up a pull off LTR barrel. Would getting that put on be an improvement or just more of the same thing?

Thanks.

 

[ThunderDownUnder]

Nice build mate, kudos to you.

In response to your awful grouping, yes it is probably becuasue of some dodgy rounds. I have heard some rare accounts of badly made copper rounds expanding inside the barrel.

 

[justgoto]

You could break-in your barrel. I did that with my new 30-06 and get a fraction of the fouling it did at first. Most people break them in as soon as they buy the rifle, but I've heard that it can also work for used rifles.

Here is how to break-in a rifle barrel.

Clean the bore of copper completely, (even if new.) Shoot one shot then clean the bore of copper completely again. Take another shot, and clean... Hopefully you'll notice a reduction in copper fouling, (I did.)

Then shoot twice and clean, for 6 shots... Then shoot 3 times and clean, for 9 shots.

By that time my barrel was copper fouling less than 1/4 of what it was at first. Since I was load developing at the same time I cleaned every shot so I didn't skew my ladder test results. Your results may be much different.

Also; I don't actually "scrub" the copper. I'll run a nylon brush dipped in copper cleaner down the barrel 4 times, (in the direction of bullet travel only,) let it sit 5 minutes, then run a dry patch down the barrel, (always in the direction of bullet travel.) I'll do that once every 20 shots. If i try to get more I'll get a trace maybe.


I also clean with oil after copper cleaning, until all the carbon fouling is gone. Once the copper is gone there is no need to use ammonia, a penetrating oil and a brass brush, works a lot better than one would think.


I clean all my guns like that, I get sub-moa with all of my center-fire guns except my 357 pistol gets 1.75moa. My 90 year old 30-06 will copper foul dramatically compared to my other rifles, it has a shot-out barrel but still gets sub-moa groups when I mount a scope. Which has me wondering if something else could be to blame for your accuracy problem.

By looking at that box of ammo, if you are heating your barrel by continuously shooting hundreds of cartridges; you just may have damaged your barrel so the load you used to shoot, will no longer be as accurate. Maybe some load development is in order or a different ammo choice?

 

[Al Thompson]

Tony, have you shot it since you've cleaned it? If it's back in the .8s, it was the copper. I tend to be a bit more harsh with factory barrels. I usually use Flitz or Iosso to clean and smooth the bore.

 

[brettrow]

A few thoughts. Try different ammo. Some ammo fouls worse with copper (all copper barnes TSX for example foul more, hornady interlocks dont). Let the barrel cool between shots ( When Im sighting in my rifles I shoot one, let it cool 5 minutes, shoot again. Since I shoot on my land I walk up to the target and look, then walk back, takes 5 minutes. If your on a range you would just sit and wait). You shouldnt have to scrub that hard. I clean after 10 shots. First I spray hoppes elite down the bore, let sit, then run nylon hoppes brushes down it a few times in one direction only using a bore guide. Then repeat until patches are clean. Then, I spray a foaming bore cleaner (gunslick brand). Let sit 15-30 minutes, dry patch it. Then finish with your choice of dry lube (I use prolix spray, let it sit 5 minutes, then dry patch it). Then shoot 2 fouling shots (guns shoot better after you shoot 1-2 fouling shots, gets rid of excess lubricants, etc.) Now your set. I do this with all my rifles including a remington SPS I have. I really doubt a new barrel is the issue. Check your scope screws too, a loose screw is a pain. Use blue loctite (I use blue loc tite from uncle mikes brand, I think). I dont recommend sighting in without shooting those 2 fouling shots, as the first (and sometimes second) shot out of a freshly cleaned barrel might be a flier by 5-6 inches, and if you adjust the scope off that shot, then your way off on your second shot.

 

[M1key]

From .6-.8 to 1.0 groups? Not that drastic.

You only have about 800 rounds through it? That does not warrant a barrel change, IMO. I would look for some other cause. Remington barrels should be good for several thousand rounds.

Check to see if something has come loose (my first concern), components of your pet load have changed such as, a new batch of powder, brass sizing (neck or F.L.), bad bullets, etc., scope going bad, loose action bedding screws, etc., or maybe a change in your shooting technique...

M

 

[sansone]

al nailed it. modern production brrls benefit from a mild, fine bore polishing. first shots won't differ much from follow-ups, brrls foul less. you dont change bore diameter, just smooth it

 

[TonyAngel]

Thanks for the input guys. I really don't think it's the ammo. I shoot mainly Sierra Matchkings and Hornady A-Max in both of my precision rifles. It may be apples and oranges, but I don't get near the copper fouling in my Douglas barrel that I have on my AR, and although the weights of the bullets are different, they are traveling at similar velocities.

Man, I've been messing with guns so long that I've missed what is apparently an issue, with regard to the copper build up. I've just never messed with a bolt action like this in stock form. I'm going to take it out tomorrow and see how it shoots.

I'm using Butch's Bore Shine. It claims to remove copper, but as I said, in my case I had to use a brush to get the copper out. I suppose that I should have qualified my statement when I said that I scrubbed the crud out of the barrel. I really don't like to clean a barrel any more than is needed. Most of the time, I don't even use a brush. Having to use a brush for 40 strokes to get the copper out seemed a bit excessive to me.

All of this might be moot, although I do appreciate the input. I called my gunsmith this morning. He's going to look into some barrels for me. He said that a good higher quality barrel with a smoother bore is going to foul much less. I suppose I should have figured that out on my own. I just have to choose between Krieger and Shillen. I think I'm going to hold on to this rifle and just get the work done. The end result should be better than I would get if I just bought a new, higher quality rifle.

 

[M1key]

Do you use a bore guide when you clean?

Copper or nylon bore brush? Some barrel makers recommend only using copper brushes as nylon are too abrasive (they say).

If you suspect fouling, a gunsmith can run a borescope down the barrel to verify that is the problem.

FWIW, my Remington 700 wears a stainless barrel. I appreciate the ease of cleaning stainless as opposed to chrome moly.

 

[sansone]

you sound determined to buy a new brrl.. have a bore expert look first

 

[TonyAngel]

I'm not really determined to buy a new barrel, I'm just not wild about the way this one is acting. Like I said, my previous experience has been with "custom" barrels and all of this with the copper is new to me.

I'm going to try polishing the barrel. Believe me, I just bought that Nightforce that's on top of the rifle now and am in no hurry to spend anymore money right now.

So, how do I go about polishing the bore without screwing it up?

I was just thinking that it would be really cool to have a Savage right now. I could do all of this myself.

 

[USSR]

I don't get near the copper fouling in my Douglas barrel that I have on my AR

Yeah, welcome to the world of $30 assembly line barrels. I started out using Butch's Bore Shine, but found it to be just a mediocre copper remover. Get yourself some Montana Extreme .50BMG and never look back. Also, just wondering how much load development work you've done? If you're getting sub-MOA groups with your rifle as it is, I would wear out that barrel getting shooting experience before spending the $$$ on a new barrel. Just MHO.

Don

 

[brettrow]

Is this a hunting rifle? If it is, .8 to 1 inch groups are all you need, dead is dead for a animal.

 

[Skylerbone]

Tony, keep a log book on rounds fired and limit shot strings to 10 or less. When resuming fire, try to start at the same barrel temp as the previous string. If you can't keep your hand on the barrel it's too hot to shoot.

Check all screws and don't be afraid to clean, noting when accuracy falls off. Take a look at Savage's page for tips on adjusting your rifle (works for any brand).

I've never been too particular about regimen or which brand of cleaner so long as it works for the barrel in question. There's no need to blow big money on another barrel when so many other factors may be the culprit.

Best of luck and stay safe.

 

[GunTech]

Bore shine is just mean to be a finish cleaner, or used in barrels that are already lapped. Try Butches bore paste first and follow with bore shine. After you've cleaned your barrel a few dozen time, you may only need bore shine.

What type of patch are you using? I find bore paste works best with bore sized felt cleaning pellets.

Are you cleaning your bore warm or cold?

 

[Al Thompson]

Polishing is pretty simple and hard to screw up. Lapping a bore is a whole other matter.

The grit loaded bullets (David Tubbs, Neco if they are still around) is the fastest and simplest way to polish. Otherwise, the cleaning rod, jag tip and some patches are about all that's needed. I do plan to look into the recommendations of USSR and GunTech.

 

[NCsmitty]

As Skylerbone mentioned, if you heat the barrel too much, you'll get a buildup in the throat that is very hard to remove. The barrel will look clean, but the copper buildup in the throat will affect your accuracy. You'll need a good bore light and good eyes to discern the buildup at the beginning of the lands. Patches alone will not clean the buildup.



NCsmitty

 

[joed]

You're comparing a factory barrel to an aftermarket barrel.

I went nuts constantly cleaning my first barrel and probably even helped wear it out faster. Shoot it and do regular cleaning, it will be fine.

My new barrel is Krieger Match and I see a big difference between it and factory. The Krieger cleans up with just 2 patches. The factory barrel, that's a different story. I no longer use any abrasives for cleaning. When I want the copper out I use Sweets with a good cleaning afterwards.

 

[TonyAngel]

OK, guys. As usual, I appreciate all of the input. I have been keeping a log. I have exactly 800 rounds through my rifle now.

When I clean, it's a cold barrel. I don't clean at the range. It waits until I get home. I've gotta admit that I shoot the crap out of my rifle. As I've said, I'm new to bolt guns and have really taken a liking to it. I am not adverse to squeezing the trigger as soon as I'm back on the target. I'm really not used to this cooling between strings thing.

I'm gonna go and see if I can check my throat for copper. My rifle is often too hot to touch when I'm shooting it. A build up at the throat might be the problem.

Again, thanks. I'm learning a lot here.

 

[788Ham]

"My rifle is often too hot to touch when I'm shooting it." There's part of your answer right there Tony, let it cool down between strings. I've got a 22-250 I love to shoot, awhile back my groups were "building"...... I quit for a minute and lit a smoke, then I touched the barrel to see if it was hot, whew, was it ever. I waited 10 minutes, shot a couple rounds, almost stacking them again. Try Flitz, or JB's bore cream to smooth out the bore, it can't and won't hurt the bore or barrel. Save your money instead of buying a new barrel, slow down and enjoy the rifle, you'll shoot as good as that other whats-his-name guy, give yourself a chance!! BTW, beautiful hunk of iron!

 

[Skylerbone]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=574297

This might help squeeze a bit more out of that barrel. It can tell you what OAL should be. Your new bolt gun is much different than your other bolt guns thanks to less restrictive magazines.

As far as the bad day at the range, everybody has them, could be wind, could be a second cup of coffee. Over thinking it makes your range time less enjoyable

Find some fun targets (newspaper pics help) and make it fun again. We ask much of these rifles and they deliver in spades more often than not. Mindset, tool, target, squeeze, those things you already know.

Good luck, good shooting and enjoy.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and see what happens. I'm gonna shoot five at a time and see. I'll post tomorrow with results.

 

[TonyAngel]

Thanks again for all of the advise guys. Last night, I got fed up and just decided to do or die. I smoothed the bore using some lapping compound that I had left over from my last 1911 build. I used ten strokes in the direction of bullet travel and then used bore paste to clean up.

I am not advising that this is the thing to do. I only did it because I was fed up. My rifle has been a PITA from the get go. Out of the box, the scope mount holes were off center, requiring 30 minutes of correction and the extractor had to be changed. Apparently I got a rifle that was built on a Friday or Monday.

Anyway, I went to the range today, but my little boy wanted to go to, so we spent most of the day with the lever guns, but I did get to shoot a few groups with the SPS. I had about 30 minutes before the range closed. Again, no time to shoot and cool. Here were the results.

For reference, the target diamond is .75" from top to bottom.






The overall results were pretty good, but I really hate my trigger now. I shot another 700 today that had a Shillen trigger in it. Needless to say, I just ordered one after having gotten to shoot mine and his side by side. He and I were taking turns shooting three shot groups and the largest of about ten groups was .6". What a shooter his was. I wanted to take pics, but didn't have a camera. It was his rifles maiden voyage, so he wanted to keep the targets.

BTW, this was that Nightforce's first trip. All I can say is that the 5.5-22X50 is bad a$$.

 

[Walkalong]

You do not have a barrel problem. Nice shooting.

Clean casually (using a bore guide) but more often. Don't let the barrel get to hot.

 

[kis2]

I'm pretty jealous about that .222. I've only ever gotten down to a .3, and that was a 3-shot.

is that off the squeeze bag and bipod?