Questions about pepper ball guns (launchers)

[12Pump]

My Dad has expressed interest in getting a pepper ball gun, which is referred to as a "launcher" by the manufacturers, for defense. I've suggested getting a firearm, but he's concerned about getting in trouble for killing someone.
I looked up videos online, and was initially impressed until I saw one with people getting shot who were wearing something heavier than a T-shirt. The pepper ball simply bounces off without opening, and doesn't even cause pain to the target person. But I'd like to hear from people on this forum who have had experiences with these devices. What do you think?

Also, I live in Wisconsin where it turns out we have the most restrictive pepper spray laws. But again, that's pepper spray. I have no idea if a pepper ball gun falls under pepper spray laws or not, and all the searching I've done for WI laws concerning pepper ball guns has turned up absolutely no results. Does anyone here know if they're legal here in Wisconsin?

 

[JShirley]

I'm pretty sure that you will face some legal trouble for using the pepper ball launcher if pepper spray is not allowed.

 

[armoredman]

I have had pepper ball launchers used professionally in my line of work, and I can tell you from a correctional standpoint - they are the single most useless "weapon" I have ever seen employed. One dumped 60 rounds in a disturbance and the biggest effect was on us, walking through after it was all over, kicking up the dust. It is a synthetic OC, so not nearly as effective as the real stuff. I have never been impressed with them.
We use Phantom for our OC foggers and personal units and THAT stuff works...VERY well.
If your area restricts OC, that would cover all delivery systems, I would think. If it only covers OC SPRAY, that might be different - one way is to contact a company selling them as ask if they sell to your area. A reputable seller would say not without LE credentials, most likely. In any case, I do NOT recommend pepperball as a viable defensive tool, based on my personal experience.
Quick question - was he planning on using this IN his home? Cleaning up OC can be a huge pain, and it will get everywhere, especially the dust from pepper balls. Nothing like dropping on the coach for a cold brew and getting a puff of OC right in the face from the cushions...

 

[Alex Clayton]

I take it he is asking for home use? Does the state let you buy Bear Spray? If he refuses to have a firearm see if he can buy a can of Bear Spray. Probably FAR better if he needs it than the pepper balls.

 

[hso]

Logic would tell you that if LE don't carry them that they aren't likely to be of much use. What do they carry? Firearm, OC spray, impact weapon. Not pepperball guns.

 

[webrx]

bought one of these for a family member for Christmas a couple years ago, he travels (drives) a bit and can't carry a real gun in some states, and lives with a person who is not pro-gun. So it was a sharp stick or this, I sent this.

Mace Brand Pepper Spray Gun 2.0 or Nylon Gun Holster, Black

https://www.amazon.com/Mace-Brand-Police-Strength-Pepper/dp/B01N5TIY3J/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=pepper+spray+pistol&qid=1638363926&qsid=144-2621685-7827900&sr=8-5&sres=B01N5TIY3J,B0864YX9J9,B088JWPH6Y,B07FFK619F,B004MG63X6,B006VK6Y5I,B06XVKRRQM,B07D3FBGPF,B07QF9Z8WW,B07JL74ZXY,B07Z31VFVY,B00FV1NRDK,B078V4SRCK,B077XNF23D,B01NCAI8GP,B07L7RH3M2,B0722ZV7SQ,B086459F85,B08KKTK4JZ,B07PKRWHSP&srpt=SELF_DEFENSE_SPRAY

 

[JShirley]

I got the Sabre Aim and Fire pistol recently for my wife. It satisfies a need to provide protection against loose aggressive dogs while avoiding the legal complications of carrying or using a concealed firearm in a military housing development.

John

 

[12Pump]

I'm pretty sure that you will face some legal trouble for using the pepper ball launcher if pepper spray is not allowed.

It's allowed. The law states that it has to be 2oz. or less and have a safety cap, and can't be disguised as something else such as lipstick or a flashlight. But they don't address a pepper ball launcher at all, as if the law doesn't even know they exist.

 

[12Pump]

I have had pepper ball launchers used professionally in my line of work, and I can tell you from a correctional standpoint - they are the single most useless "weapon" I have ever seen employed. One dumped 60 rounds in a disturbance and the biggest effect was on us, walking through after it was all over, kicking up the dust. It is a synthetic OC, so not nearly as effective as the real stuff. I have never been impressed with them.
We use Phantom for our OC foggers and personal units and THAT stuff works...VERY well.
If your area restricts OC, that would cover all delivery systems, I would think. If it only covers OC SPRAY, that might be different - one way is to contact a company selling them as ask if they sell to your area. A reputable seller would say not without LE credentials, most likely. In any case, I do NOT recommend pepperball as a viable defensive tool, based on my personal experience.
Quick question - was he planning on using this IN his home? Cleaning up OC can be a huge pain, and it will get everywhere, especially the dust from pepper balls. Nothing like dropping on the coach for a cold brew and getting a puff of OC right in the face from the cushions...

Yeah, I think he mainly wanted it for inside the home. If it's all I could have, I'd go with one of those big canisters of OC that puts out a big jet of the stuff. I think that's what you refer to as a fogger. But....Wisconsin restricts it to 2oz, so that's probably not an option.

 

[12Pump]

bought one of these for a family member for Christmas a couple years ago, he travels (drives) a bit and can't carry a real gun in some states, and lives with a person who is not pro-gun. So it was a sharp stick or this, I sent this.

Mace Brand Pepper Spray Gun 2.0 or Nylon Gun Holster, Black

https://www.amazon.com/Mace-Brand-Police-Strength-Pepper/dp/B01N5TIY3J/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=pepper+spray+pistol&qid=1638363926&qsid=144-2621685-7827900&sr=8-5&sres=B01N5TIY3J,B0864YX9J9,B088JWPH6Y,B07FFK619F,B004MG63X6,B006VK6Y5I,B06XVKRRQM,B07D3FBGPF,B07QF9Z8WW,B07JL74ZXY,B07Z31VFVY,B00FV1NRDK,B078V4SRCK,B077XNF23D,B01NCAI8GP,B07L7RH3M2,B0722ZV7SQ,B086459F85,B08KKTK4JZ,B07PKRWHSP&srpt=SELF_DEFENSE_SPRAY

Looks good, and cheap too! Only a tenth the price of what I was looking at. But I noticed when I clicked the link and looked at the right side of the screen that it can't be shipped to my area. I guess that's an indication that Amazon is familiar with our laws.
I did an Amazon search for the Byrna SD, which is what my Dad was specifically asking about. It shows that it can't be shipped here either. I guess that answers my question.

 

[CapnMac]

Looking under WI law at 941.26  Machine guns and other weapons; use in certain cases; penalty.
(emphasis added)

(4) (a) Subsections (1g) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum or CS gel and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause
bodily discomfort.

(b) Whoever intentionally uses a device or container described under par. (a) to cause bodily harm or bodily discomfort to another is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) Paragraph (b) does not apply to any of the following:
1. Any person acting in self-defense or defense of another, as allowed under s. 939.48.
2. Any peace officer acting in his or her official capacity. Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (22), for purposes of this subdivision, peace officer does not include a commission warden who is not a state-certified commission warden.
3. Any armed forces or national guard personnel acting in the line of duty.

The spray dispensers are significantly regulated, though. Quite likely due to potential collateral effects.
Now, we'd need a WI attorney to weigh in on whether a "pepper ball 'gun' " fits:

941.2965  Restrictions on use of facsimile firearms.
(1)  In this section, “facsimile firearm" means any replica, toy, starter pistol or other object that bears a reasonable resemblance to or that reasonably can be perceived to be an actual firearm. “Facsimile firearm" does not include any actual firearm.

(2) No person may carry or display a facsimile firearm in a manner that could reasonably be expected to alarm, intimidate, threaten or terrify another person. Whoever violates this section is subject to a Class C forfeiture.

(3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) Any peace officer acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (22), this paragraph does not apply to a commission warden.
(b) Any person engaged in military activities, sponsored by the state or federal government, acting in the discharge of his or her official duties.
(c) Any person who is on his or her own real property, in his or her own home or at his or her own fixed place of business.
(d) Any person who is on real property and acting with the consent of the owner of that property.

 

[DDeegs]

And a fyi, the pepperballs are crazy $$$$

 

[12Pump]

Looking under WI law at 941.26  Machine guns and other weapons; use in certain cases; penalty.
(emphasis added)

The spray dispensers are significantly regulated, though. Quite likely due to potential collateral effects.
Now, we'd need a WI attorney to weigh in on whether a "pepper ball 'gun' " fits:

It sounds like a case made against my Dad if he used one of these in self defense would be an even bigger tangled legal web than simply shooting someone with a real gun. He thinks using a pepperball gun would eliminate any legal hassles since the person wouldn't be hurt or killed. But the way the laws are written, I dunno about that.

 

[12Pump]

And a fyi, the pepperballs are crazy $$$$

Yeah, and they aren't even powered. That requires a CO2 cartridge, so there's even more money to spend.
I've been advising him against it after looking into it, even just from the legal standpoint. Then there's the cost, the effectiveness.....may as well go with a low caliber firearm like a .22 pistol and be better off legally, financially, and probably even effectively as well. I think even reliability would be better. I've had a CO2 BB gun once and it didn't shoot with any power at all when it was cold. There was even a video on Youtube where a guy was reviewing a pepperball gun in colder weather. He shot it a few times at a pumpkin. First shot put a big dent in it, the second penetrated to the inside, and the third shot bounced off while hardly leaving a mark. Not something I'd want to stake my life on.
Here's that video. Pumpkin test starts at 3:40

 

[hso]

He thinks using a pepperball gun would eliminate any legal hassles since the person wouldn't be hurt or killed.

Welllll, the guy he tried to use it on might not, but he's likely to continue on to your father's detriment.

Not something I'd want to stake my life on.

Your dad probably isn't going to accept any of this, but when he buys the thing run a drill and take a spatula and have him shoot at you and try to stop you before you give him a few whacks with the spatula. He'll only be out some money and might get an education.

 

[CapnMac]

It sounds like a case made against my Dad if he used one of these in self defense

Go back and look at the statute--you are exonerated if using in self defense.
But, you are going to have to have a "provable" case of self-defense.
Which is probably going to hinge on a "reasonable immediate fear of death" (and/or serious injury).
Or, in really simple terms, a justification for using "deadly force."
Responding to a "deadly force threat" with "a less than deadly" response might seem creditable, even commendable--unless the Bad Person knocks your block clean off.

 

[12Pump]

Go back and look at the statute--you are exonerated if using in self defense.
But, you are going to have to have a "provable" case of self-defense.
Which is probably going to hinge on a "reasonable immediate fear of death" (and/or serious injury).
Or, in really simple terms, a justification for using "deadly force."
Responding to a "deadly force threat" with "a less than deadly" response might seem creditable, even commendable--unless the Bad Person knocks your block clean off.

But what about ownership? I can see exoneration if it's use is ruled in self defense, but if ownership is illegal and is discovered before it's actually used, such as if a traffic stop resulted in a vehicle search, then that becomes more of an issue.
Searching for these devices on Amazon, I found that they won't even ship them to Wisconsin, so it looks like Amazon might be seeing something in the law against ownership here.

 

[CapnMac]

Searching for these devices on Amazon, I found that they won't even ship them to Wisconsin, so it looks like Amazon might be seeing something in the law against ownership here.

Going through the Firearms Statute, I saw nothing barring ownership of "gas projectors" or the like, and nothing other than the prohibition on "imitation firearms."

With Amazon, one has to remember that something near 75% of the sales presented are drop shippers, just using Amazon for a sales front. Those sellers may have run into problems shipping to places, and stopped as a result. Some may be acting on hearsay as well. We cannot count on those people having actually investigated the legality (or, even of having a bag full of lawyers, as Amazon, itself, surely does). Further, you cannot count on those dop shippers even being US-based. Shipping companies will "cause" shipping policies to occur, not necessarily by way of legality, but by inconvenience.

 

[DT Guy]

Having been an OC instructor and trained (and sprayed) a few hundred trainees, the problem with the pepper balls is their payload; it's not a lot of product, compared to a 2 second stream from a belt unit.

And of the folks I sprayed 'for real' with OC, exactly 0 stopped their criminal act after the exposure; all needed follow-up action.

I had been pretty keen on OC when first exposed (pun intended) to it, but it's less of a deterrent than I'd hoped; especially now that everyone pretty much knows it's harmless.

Larry

 

[Alex Clayton]

Having been an OC instructor and trained (and sprayed) a few hundred trainees, the problem with the pepper balls is their payload; it's not a lot of product, compared to a 2 second stream from a belt unit.

And of the folks I sprayed 'for real' with OC, exactly 0 stopped their criminal act after the exposure; all needed follow-up action.

I had been pretty keen on OC when first exposed (pun intended) to it, but it's less of a deterrent than I'd hoped; especially now that everyone pretty much knows it's harmless.

Larry

Sadly the OC is not the "be all to end all" that many want to think it is. I have used it quite a few times with VERY mixed results on 2 legged. Some literally scream and drop. A couple have charged me and attacked like it was nothing. Still have a scar on one arm from one who bit me
Where it has shined for me is on 4 legged. When walking my mutts I have had a few times had to use it on some morons dog allowed to run loose who wanted to make a meal out of my dog. I LOVE dogs and DO NOT want to have to harm one because it has a moron for an owner. The OC has saved a few dogs lives in that it made them back off from my mutt and fast. Does no harm to the other dog so win win to me. For people it's better than nothing but, people need to be prepared that it may do little to slow down an attacker.