Questions About Reloading without Reliable Load Data...

[flyingclutch]

Hello folks,

Long time listener, first-time caller.

This is my first post here. I'm 26, a law student, and dabble in all sorts of different disciplines in terms of the practice of using and owning firearms (which the state of California graciously allows me to do.) I have been reloading for some time for .45-70, .308, .45 ACP, and .223 Remington. I hope I am not asking something that has already been answered, but I am looking for caliber/bullet weight specific answers, if at all possible.

As a caveat: I am an EXTREMELY cautious reloader and tend towards the lowest of all loads when I am given the opportunity, and am tentative to load anything without reliable data.

Here are my questions:

1. I received a box of some vintage .30-30 projectiles (Sierra 120 gr. Pro-Hunter). Sierra does not publish load data, and I have checked Hodgdon, several years of Lyman manuals, and Hornady's App, and I cannot even find data for a 120 gr. .30-30 round at all.

How does one go about finding a relatively safe load? I have a stock of IMR4198 and would prefer to find something to allow me to use that. Lyman had load data for a 110gr and a 125gr loading which used this powder, and the starting loads were about a grain and a half different if I recall.

2. The same question as above, however, it's for a Berry's Superior 350 grain round nose in .500" for a .500 S&W Magnum. (I am sure this has been answered somewhere here.) I know Berry says to use the data for an FMJ or hard cast in the same weight, but the only data I can seem to find that's similar is for the Hornady XTP in 350 gr., and that's obviously a hollow-point round. Would that work?

3. How big of a difference does a crimp make in terms of pressure output? I am very light on all of my crimping dies, as I have nearly paranoid concerns pertaining to overpressuring my guns. Typically, I will only increase my loads past the starting load where I am loading for my Marlin 1895 in 45-70, and will do so according to Hornady's specs, using Hornady projectiles.


Thank anyone in advance for the help, or even for reading my questions. I have been missing my 30-30 severely for a couple of years now, and finally have the tooling and parts to load for it, so I am placing a higher level of priority on that question.


EDIT: The Sierra bullets for the 30-30 are 125 gr. Pro-Hunter rounds, not 120 as I had believed prior.

 

[Thomasss]

In current Hodgdon internet powder loading guide
4198 is no longer recommended for you bullet. I am like you. I use conservative numbers when reloading. I was always told to find three sources for a load before using it. Check out the Berry Bullet box. Berry many times will have a velocity warning on their bullets. Exceeding their warning will cause the bullets to key hole or become wildly inaccurate.
3) Crimping can cause pressure increase. But some calibers require some crimping to get a good powder burn. Many people will start with no crimp or a very light one. With respect to your pistol calibers you mentioned a light crimp with slow burning powders would be recommened. If you decide to crimp harder, watch for over pressure signs.
2) you will be ok IF you start with minimum loads and slowly work up to the velocity you are looking for.

 

[Archie]

No data for 120 grain bullets? Try starting loads for next heavier bullet weight. The Lyman #50 manual has IMR4198 loading data for .30-30 and for 110 grain bullets. Using the same type powder see what the starting load difference is and start with something around there. Then, work up to what you expect for velocity AND pressure signs like being harder to extract and swelling of cases and such.

.500 S&W Magnum. No experience with the round or that handgun. I have swapped bullets around in other calibers, but not at those pressures. My understanding from reading various articles and such is that bullets can vary in hardness due to internal designs. Bullets that are harder generally run higher pressures as the bullets resist passing through the bore more and that results in greater back pressure. If the bullets in question are all the same weight, a shorter bullet has to have greater density. That to me would indicate the internal structure to be greater. That is as far as I'm going.
You did mention Lyman manuals. The information for .500 S&W includes 375 grain Barnes HP. The data for Unique indicates that load is a 'reduced' load. Generally a cast lead bullet is loaded to lower pressures and velocity than jacketed.
You might want to check on line. Perhaps someone has done this without mishap and will share.

Crimp. One has used a heavier crimp on mostly handgun loads in combination with slower burning powders. It takes longer for the bullet to leave the case and the pressure builds up in the starting phase to ensure a more complete powder burn. However, I've never seen or otherwise detected higher maximum pressures. So while having an effect on the 'start up', the maximum doesn't seem to be changed.
Warning: I do not have or use a pico-second by pico-second chamber pressure tester; nor do I have a degree in Engineering. I do have fifty years reloading time and all my fingers. Be careful and watch for danger.

 

[mkmoy]

A few comments as a 30-30 reloader. First and foremost, stick to manufacturer published reloading data. If you cannot locate your desired makeup of cartridge, do not load it. The 4 sources you mentioned are very good. Sierra does have a manual by the way. Speer and Nosler have on-line data also. Best to find your load over 2-3 manuals and use one of the starting charges and work up. For 30-30 lever actions only use a flat nose bullet (150 or 170-gr is typical) or the flex tip type due to detonating a primer in mag tube. Also 30-30 wants a .308 diameter bullet. Not sure the diameter/Sierra P# of your vintage 120-grain. So far I am not seeing a 120-grain for a 30-30 as typical. Possible load for a 30-30 contender pistol however. Current Sierra 120-grain ProHunter bullets are made for 6.5MM or 7MM and not .308 dia. Double check your 120-grain diameter with a caliper, but still needs to be flat nose unless used in a revolver or single shot.

I use 170-grain flat nose and have used IMR3031, IMR 4064 and Hodgden Leverevolution (greatest velosity) with good results. Flex tips do offer greater retained velocity. Flat nose .308's are offered in 110 or 125 as varmint rounds.

 

[fxvr5]

Is the 120 Pro-Hunter a flat nose bullet?

Contact Sierra. They might have load data suggestions. https://www.sierrabullets.com/contact/#talk-to-a-tech

 

[fxvr5]

In current Hodgdon internet powder loading guide
4198 is no longer recommended for you bullet.

Hodgdon's online rifle load data does not list the OP's 120 grain bullet.

They do list 110, 125 and 130 grain bullets for their light weight bullets. IMR4198 is listed for 110 and 130 grain bullets.

 

[Starter52]

I recommend a solid crimp on every case that has a rim, from .32 S&W to .45/70 and .500 S&W.

I would not worry about extra pressure caused by crimping unless you are using crazy hot loads.

 

[markr6754]

I don't load 30-30, but I have used 120gr 30-30 bullets for 300 Blk loads.
Anyway, the current Sierra load guide lists a 125gr projectile for 30-30...not your exact bullet, I know. It also lists H4198 for the 125gr HP/FN projectile. IMR4198 and H4198 are NOT the same powder, but they are side by side on the burn rate chart, if that helps.
Sierra 30-30 125gr load data with H4198 - starting load 24.4gr for 2110fps (noted soft load) and increases to 29.6gr for 2490fps, warnings for pressure begin at 29.4gr. OAL 2.420"

Lee load data (for 30-30) where both H4198 and IMR4198 are listed have the IMR4198 starting 0.5gr lower than H4198, and at MAX the IMR4198 load is 1.0gr lower.

Lee has several loads listed for both H4198 and IMR4198 - 110gr Jacketed and 130gr Jacketed. In both cases, the starting load for IMR4198 is 0.5gr lower than the H4198, and max load is 1.0gr lower.
IMR4198 110gr Jacketed Start 22.5gr, Max 24.0gr
IMR4198 130gr Jacketed Start 22.0gr, Max 23.5gr

If, totally at your own risk, you were to develop loads it may make sense to start with the more conservative Lee data, since the Sierra starting load data is already higher than LEE MAX load data.

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Watch for pressure signs. Nosler reloading manual number one has more info than newer manuals pertaining to pressure signs.

 

[Nature Boy]

One reason you’re having trouble finding 30-30 data is the 120 ProHunter is a Spitzer tip and may not be safe to use in a tube magazine. Sierra doesn’t list it for use with 30-30 loads

Here’s the Sierra page for 125 FN for 30-30 loads



ETA, IMR 4198 is not the same as H 4198. They are close but IMR burns a bit faster. Being the cautious fella that you are, I would start an IMR load 10% lower than a published H load and work up from there.

 

[flyingclutch]

One reason you’re having trouble finding 30-30 data is the 120 ProHunter is a Spitzer tip and may not be safe to use in a tube magazine. Sierra doesn’t list it for use with 30-30 loads

Here’s the Sierra page for 125 FN for 30-30 loads

View attachment 1132404

ETA, IMR 4198 is not the same as H 4198. They are close but IMR burns a bit faster. Being the cautious fella that you are, I would start an IMR load 10% lower than a published H load and work up from there.

For whatever reason, I appear to have misread the box. The cartridges ARE 125 grains, and they are flat-point rounds. Interestingly, the box says they are .308" and notates their specific usage in a .30-30

I am aware of the difference between IMR and H4198, however I noticed some of the older Lyman manuals have IMR 4198 listed as a powder for a 125gr. projectile. I also noticed that there were claims that old formulations of powder are different and the new Lyman manuals should be used. Is there any claim to that? I can't imagine that they would massively change up formulations that old-timers have been running for decades... seems like a way to get folks to spring for the newer editions.

 

[flyingclutch]

In current Hodgdon internet powder loading guide
4198 is no longer recommended for you bullet. I am like you. I use conservative numbers when reloading. I was always told to find three sources for a load before using it. Check out the Berry Bullet box. Berry many times will have a velocity warning on their bullets. Exceeding their warning will cause the bullets to key hole or become wildly inaccurate.
3) Crimping can cause pressure increase. But some calibers require some crimping to get a good powder burn. Many people will start with no crimp or a very light one. With respect to your pistol calibers you mentioned a light crimp with slow burning powders would be recommened. If you decide to crimp harder, watch for over pressure signs.
2) you will be ok IF you start with minimum loads and slowly work up to the velocity you are looking for.

Where does it say the IMR 4198 is no longer recommended? Do you mean for the bullet type specifically, or the .30-30 entirely??

 

[AJC1]

Lyman has a 125 load in their manual. Standard practice is to tend heavier as it results in less pressure. In theory that would also increase your max charge but I find that unnecessary if your looking for accuracy. Weigh your bullet

 

[flyingclutch]

A few comments as a 30-30 reloader. First and foremost, stick to manufacturer published reloading data. If you cannot locate your desired makeup of cartridge, do not load it. The 4 sources you mentioned are very good. Sierra does have a manual by the way. Speer and Nosler have on-line data also. Best to find your load over 2-3 manuals and use one of the starting charges and work up. For 30-30 lever actions only use a flat nose bullet (150 or 170-gr is typical) or the flex tip type due to detonating a primer in mag tube. Also 30-30 wants a .308 diameter bullet. Not sure the diameter/Sierra P# of your vintage 120-grain. So far I am not seeing a 120-grain for a 30-30 as typical. Possible load for a 30-30 contender pistol however. Current Sierra 120-grain ProHunter bullets are made for 6.5MM or 7MM and not .308 dia. Double check your 120-grain diameter with a caliper, but still needs to be flat nose unless used in a revolver or single shot.

I use 170-grain flat nose and have used IMR3031, IMR 4064 and Hodgden Leverevolution (greatest velosity) with good results. Flex tips do offer greater retained velocity. Flat nose .308's are offered in 110 or 125 as varmint rounds.

Thank you for the insight. The rounds I have are old 125 (not 120, apparently) grain, .308", flat top Sierra Pro Hunter's designated for 30-30 loadings. I believe I did see at least a Lyman manual that had a load offering, and will probably weigh that against H4198 loadings to see how close to being in the ballpark I am.

While I'm not myself particularly fond of making guesses, you have to figure that some folks with their home-cast lead bullets are making some guesses at times. Braver souls than I am, certainly.

Also, I have been hearing a lot of good things regarding the LEVERevolution powder, I just wish it were more versatile in terms of caliber applications. Though it seems like nearly all my calibers thus far have required a new powder. The law student budget does not fit the modern reloader's, it appears.

 

[AJC1]

Thank you for the insight. The rounds I have are old 125 (not 120, apparently) grain, .308", flat top Sierra Pro Hunter's designated for 30-30 loadings. I believe I did see at least a Lyman manual that had a load offering, and will probably weigh that against H4198 loadings to see how close to being in the ballpark I am.

While I'm not myself particularly fond of making guesses, you have to figure that some folks with their home-cast lead bullets are making some guesses at times. Braver souls than I am, certainly.

Also, I have been hearing a lot of good things regarding the LEVERevolution powder, I just wish it were more versatile in terms of caliber applications. Though it seems like nearly all my calibers thus far have required a new powder. The law student budget does not fit the modern reloader's, it appears.

No one is guessing I promise you. There are interpolation skills, and programs like GRT and quickloads. I interpolate a lot and have people sanity check my math.

 

[flyingclutch]

No one is guessing I promise you. There are interpolation skills, and programs like GRT and quickloads. I interpolate a lot and have people sanity check my math.

Guessing vs. interpolation is a fair distinction. Wrong word on my behalf. I would love to mess around with the calculations on something like GRT, that seems like a neat tool.

Thanks for the shot of the Lyman manual on the 125 gr loadings. Saves me some pdf digging!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hello folks,

Long time listener, first-time caller.

This is my first post here. I'm 26, a law student, and dabble in all sorts of different disciplines in terms of the practice of using and owning firearms (which the state of California graciously allows me to do.) I have been reloading for some time for .45-70, .308, .45 ACP, and .223 Remington. I hope I am not asking something that has already been answered, but I am looking for caliber/bullet weight specific answers, if at all possible.

As a caveat: I am an EXTREMELY cautious reloader and tend towards the lowest of all loads when I am given the opportunity, and am tentative to load anything without reliable data.

Here are my questions:

1. I received a box of some vintage .30-30 projectiles (Sierra 120 gr. Pro-Hunter). Sierra does not publish load data, and I have checked Hodgdon, several years of Lyman manuals, and Hornady's App, and I cannot even find data for a 120 gr. .30-30 round at all.

How does one go about finding a relatively safe load? I have a stock of IMR4198 and would prefer to find something to allow me to use that. Lyman had load data for a 110gr and a 125gr loading which used this powder, and the starting loads were about a grain and a half different if I recall.

Thank anyone in advance for the help, or even for reading my questions. I have been missing my 30-30 severely for a couple of years now, and finally have the tooling and parts to load for it, so I am placing a higher level of priority on that question.

EDIT: The Sierra bullets for the 30-30 are 125 gr. Pro-Hunter rounds, not 120 as I had believed prior.

Here you go. The range for the Sierra 125gr FN in H4198 is 25-28 grain in the Sierra App for iPhone.

 

[flyingclutch]

Here you go. The range for the Sierra 125gr FN in H4198 is 25-28 grain in the Sierra App for iPhone.
View attachment 1132487

Thanks! Looks like I should grab some H4198... or something else I can use interchangeably between 45-70 and 30-30. If it exists.

 

[AJC1]

Thanks! Looks like I should grab some H4198... or something else I can use interchangeably between 45-70 and 30-30. If it exists.

I haven't seen h4189 or h4895 in two years. Not knowing a purpose hinders my best recommendation but imr 30-31 will provide loads up to full power with bullets of normal weights. Irm4198 has been available a lot and aa5744.

 

[fxvr5]

Where does it say the IMR 4198 is no longer recommended? Do you mean for the bullet type specifically, or the .30-30 entirely??

It never said IMR 4198 is not recommended. Thomasss is wrong.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Where does it say the IMR 4198 is no longer recommended? Do you mean for the bullet type specifically, or the .30-30 entirely??

I have the Sierra app for my iPhone and it does not show IMR 4198 for any of the .30-30 bullets currently in the catalog. When a powder is not recommended it can mean the bullet maker (Sierra) tested the powder and does not consider the results optimal, they simply didn’t test it, or they tested it and found there are better options (H4198) for their product. It doesn’t mean that combination won’t work or it’s dangerous; the bullet maker just doesn’t recommend it. I take that kind of thing with a grain of salt; but I also do consider it.
Frankly I’m a little curious about this as I’m kinda fond of IMR 3031 and 4198 in the .30-30. Then again, I also like IMR 4227 with cast bullets in the .30-30 and that dates back a long way. It works well with jacketed too, in my experience, but it is not recommended.

 

[AJC1]

It appears that imr recommends all their powders

 

[__steve__]

Hello folks,

Long time listener, first-time caller.

This is my first post here. I'm 26, a law student, and dabble in all sorts of different disciplines in terms of the practice of using and owning firearms (which the state of California graciously allows me to do.) I have been reloading for some time for .45-70, .308, .45 ACP, and .223 Remington. I hope I am not asking something that has already been answered, but I am looking for caliber/bullet weight specific answers, if at all possible.

As a caveat: I am an EXTREMELY cautious reloader and tend towards the lowest of all loads when I am given the opportunity, and am tentative to load anything without reliable data.

2. The same question as above, however, it's for a Berry's Superior 350 grain round nose in .500" for a .500 S&W Magnum. (I am sure this has been answered somewhere here.) I know Berry says to use the data for an FMJ or hard cast in the same weight, but the only data I can seem to find that's similar is for the Hornady XTP in 350 gr., and that's obviously a hollow-point round. Would that work?
.

The cannelure on the Berry’s are very low down on the shank so if you follow the XTP recipe you will be left with a completely different pressure dynamic since there will be much more unfilled case space under seated bullet. With for instance H110, which requires at least 90% volume in case, an equivalent charge ends up much higher than that of the XTP max load. But I have indeed loaded and shot hundreds these at 90% with H110 charge and consider this my go-to load for target blasting without any negative effects. Another factor is that they are plated and you will be pushing them hard, but again, I had no problems whatsoever. My suggestion if H110 sounds too risky, and it was risky of me to load them, is to just use a slow bulky powder like H335 or even BL-C(2) and start with an almost full case then work up from there. Unfortunately I haven’t tried those powders yet though.

 

[flyingclutch]

The cannelure on the Berry’s are very low down on the shank so if you follow the XTP recipe you will be left with a completely different pressure dynamic since there will be much more unfilled case space under seated bullet. With for instance H110, which requires at least 90% volume in case, an equivalent charge ends up much higher than that of the XTP max load. But I have indeed loaded and shot hundreds these at 90% with H110 charge and consider this my go-to load for target blasting without any negative effects. Another factor is that they are plated and you will be pushing them hard, but again, I had no problems whatsoever. My suggestion if H110 sounds too risky, and it was risky of me to load them, is to just use a slow bulky powder like H335 or even BL-C(2) and start with an almost full case then work up from there. Unfortunately I haven’t tried those powders yet though.

I don't think the Berry's I got even have cannelures on them... which is odd because the 300 grain doesn't have them but the 350 is supposed to what a PITA. Berry's needs to nut up and publish some load data. Looks like they do have the OAL spec on their site. Though I'll keep digging for some load data for an FMJ in the same weight. There must be something. Seems like Hornady runs the .500 projectile market.

 

[flyingclutch]

It appears that imr recommends all their powders
View attachment 1132496

This is comedy gold right here.

I have the Sierra app for my iPhone and it does not show IMR 4198 for any of the .30-30 bullets currently in the catalog. When a powder is not recommended it can mean the bullet maker (Sierra) tested the powder and does not consider the results optimal, they simply didn’t test it, or they tested it and found there are better options (H4198) for their product. It doesn’t mean that combination won’t work or it’s dangerous; the bullet maker just doesn’t recommend it. I take that kind of thing with a grain of salt; but I also do consider it.
Frankly I’m a little curious about this as I’m kinda fond of IMR 3031 and 4198 in the .30-30. Then again, I also like IMR 4227 with cast bullets in the .30-30 and that dates back a long way. It works well with jacketed too, in my experience, but it is not recommended.

I can understand one company avoiding it, but Hornady doesn't seem to have it listed in their guide either. At this point, I'm just looking to get something loaded for my 30-30 that will hopefully (1) make a loud noise and (2) exit the barrel. I know remarkably little about powder burn rates, and the fact that a cast bullet and a jacketed one can have different powder preferences is still something I'm trying to wrap my head around.

I haven't seen h4189 or h4895 in two years. Not knowing a purpose hinders my best recommendation but imr 30-31 will provide loads up to full power with bullets of normal weights. Irm4198 has been available a lot and aa5744.

Actually, if memory serves, I think I was using IMR 3031 for my .308 Win loads... I wonder if I have any left. But mostly, the 45-70 and 30-30 stuff I'm loading is for plinking and building a stock of usable ammo, not particularly low-recoil loads. All my hunting ammo is factory, though with the shortages and prices for specialty ammo in CA (everywhere, but mostly here, where ammo background checks drive people to buy in bulk immediately upon seeing stock) I may consider trying to work up some lead-free loads for hunting eventually.