Questions about stocks: hardness, durability, bedding, etc.

[AStone]

I wasn't sure what forum to post this in. It seems reasonable here because it applies to several types of firearms, at least rifles and shotguns.

I'm on track to purchase a Marlin 336 in .30-30. One factor in which model I'm going to buy (336A v. 336C) is the wood from which the stock is made.

For reasons unrelated to this thread, I'm most interested in a Marlin 336A, which has a stock made of birch. The 336C has a stock made of American walnut.

I've spent several hours over the last few days researching the differences between "birch" and "walnut" because my gun shop folks told me that walnut was "much harder than" and "superior to" birch.

Yet after reading about a dozen web pages about hardwoods, including several pages on hardwood floors, what I'm reading seems to suggest that birch is a harder wood than walnut.

Here's an example. Here's another.

Those pages, among others, suggest that birch is harder than walnut. Am I missing something here?
Am I misinterpreting those data? Is birch really harder than walnut, or am I misreading those charts?

If birch is harder than walnut (I'm skeptical), then I'm having a hard time understanding why Marlin proudly produces it's flagship 336C with a walnut stock, and relegates the birch stocks to the 336A and 336W.

I can't believe that birch is harder than walnut. And even if so in some sense, then this issue must be more complex than simply "hardness" of the wood. Is walnut more durable than birch? Do walnut stocks offer a better attachment to the tang than birch? Or is walnut is more aesthetically pleasing than birch?

So, I'm hoping that folks more knowledgeable than me - including some bona fide wood workers - will clarify this wood issue.

Which is harder: walnut or birch?

And more generally, what recommendations do THR members have concerning stocks for long guns?

Are laminates better than hardwoods, whether birch or walnut or whatever?

What about synthetic stocks? How do they relate to birch and walnut in terms of hardness and durability, and how do they affect gun accuracy in terms of barrel bedding, etc.

Feel free to add whatever level of complexity or tangential twist to this thread you wish.

The topic is stock materials, and why some are better or more desirable than others.

Opinions welcome. Have a blast, folks.

Nem

 

[mnrivrat]

While I can't speak to the hardness of birch vs walnut my experience has been that either one is about as durable. The main factor I see in comparing the two is in appearance.

Laminanted wood on the other hand is more stable (no warpage) ,and more durable as a result of its construction.

The same is true for composite stocks, as they are more stable and inpervious to moisture and oils .

 

[tellner]

Walnut is more expensive, takes longer to grow and is, many think, prettier. My suspicion is that it's more a matter of esthetics than engineering. Synthetics are even more durable and require less care.

 

[AStone]

The main factor I see in comparing the two is in appearance.

Mnrivrat, that's my working hypothesis: I think this is more an aesthetic issue than hardness or durability when it comes to walnut v. birch.

Walnut seems to have more interesting grain and patterning characteristics than birch, which appeals to the consumer more than birch.

I'm willing to be proved wrong by those more knowledgeable about wood than me (which is probably most people, but especially wood workers).

My suspicion is that it's more a matter of esthetics than engineering.

Ah, yes, another supporting opinion.

Nice to see others haunting the THR halls on a Friday night.

Nem

 

[tellner]

For me the difference between the 336W and 336C was "Well OK. It's expensive, but if you really have to" and "Are you out of your mind? We can't afford that!"

By the bye, the action on mine is a little rough. Should I go after it with emery paper?

 

[AStone]

Tell,

I'd have a smith smooth it up.



Nem

 

[Dorryn]

Isnt birch more brittle? As in, more likely to crack/fracture under certain types of impacts or force? Exactly the kind of force you would most likely avoid subjecting a firearm to... but who knows.

 

[Tokugawa]

Nem- Walnut is more significantly expensive than birch. It is also more bit more stable, and the pretty pieces (figured) will knock your eyes out. Birch is a bit harder, not so attractive (in my opinion) but perfectly ok for a stock. Ask the Finns, they stocked about 87 jillion mosin nagants with birch.
Go to www.empirearms.com to look. You will see the stain the finns used did not take evenly. (of course, one could consider it as camo) Marlin will use a much more sophisticated stain process and it will be even.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

stock choices

Here are the facts (1) birch etc. is HARDER than walnut (2) hardwoods are less likely to warp (3) hardwood costs less than walnut (4) hardwood is much less likely to crack than walnut (5) hardwood is harder to work with and (6) hardwood is about as attractive as a slab fence post. Purist insist on walnut and sneer at hardwoods and synthetics. Practicalist choose the hardwoods or synthetics for toughness and durability. The question is what do you want? Personal preferrence and application will determine which you should choose,IMHO.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

smoothing a trigger

I can't say this strongly enough. DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO THE TRIGGER!!! Unless you have been trained in trigger work leave it alone. Nothing is more dangerous on a firearm than a trigger that has been tampered with. I once had a Savage Mod.110 in 30.06 that had a "trigger job" ,as a result if the trigger was pulled with the safety engaged nothing would happen until the safety was taken off ,at which time the arm would fire! I have replaced a number of "reworked" triggers to restore the arms to a safe condition. If the trigger is just too unacceptable, have a competent gunsmith smooth it up. He will use a hard Arkansas stone not sandpaper or files.

 

[JohnBT]

"hardwood costs less than walnut "

I think you need to do some rewording for accuracy. Birch may be harder than walnut, but walnut is a hardwood too.

Googled up at random in case you think I'm making this up. John

"The natural beauty of hardwoods such as oak, cherry, black walnut, claro walnut, english walnut, ebony, bubinga, maple, and birdseye maple are used to bring nature in doors. Shipping is available in the continental United States,"

 

[jimmyraythomason]

walnut vs hardwood

Walnut may technically be a "hardwood" by definition but is hardly the same as gunstock hardwood. The properties of the two woods are so diverse as to seperate them into two distinct groups. If you ask for a "hardwood" stock you will not get a stock made of walnut. Semantics will not change the truth of my post.

 

[AStone]

the semantics of "hardwood"

I think the confusion about "hardwood" is exacerbated by companies like Marlin that use that generic term for their "non-walnut" stocks.

For example, Marlin's description of the stock on their 336A includes these statements (my emphasis):

"Its hardwood stock has cut checkering and swivel studs."

"Walnut finished cut-checkered hardwood with pistol grip; tough Mar-Shield® finish..."
(Note walnut "finished", not walnut.)

I only learned from my gun shop folks this week that in the case of Marlin, "hardwood" = birch.

(Even then, I'm taking the salesperson's word for it. He was reading from a computer screen that I couldn't see, but insisted that "hardwood" = birch, at least on Marlin lever guns. He seems like a person of intergrity though, so I have no reason to doubt it. I'd just like to find a description from Marlin directly.)

I'm not really sure why Marlin (and other makers) couldn't just own up and say "it's birch" instead of the more ambiguous "hardwood". Why the ambiguity? Is it in case they can't get birch, they can use some other hardwood?

I dunno.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Birch vs other hardwoods

Birch is the most common of the hardwoods used for gunstocks and isn't very attractive. There are other woods beside walnut that are attractive. My favorite of non walnut woods for gunstocks are the maples. I have a Rhienhart-Fagan "Aristicrat" (for 98 mauser) in Birds-eye maple with rosewood gripcap and forend and buffalo horn buttplate. A hardwood stock that is definitely attractive but not cheap.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The main attraction of walnut for a stock wood is that if you get a piece with nice grain, it'll be pretty. As already mentioned in this thread, however, from a functional standpoint, birch is actually better. Occasionally, you can luck out with birch and get one with curl, like you see with curly maple. E.g., my brother has an 1896 Swedish Mauser in a curly birch stock that'll make your eyes bug out it's so pretty.

"Laminated" is a fancy term for plywood. From a functional standpoint, it's better than either birch or walnut. Because the grain of each of the plies is perpendicular to those it's next to, and are glued together under pressure, laminated stocks are very stable and weather resistant. Since you live up in the Great Northwet, this is something to consider.

Synthetic stocks are better yet when considering weather resistance. "Synthetic" is yet another marketing term, this time for plastic. It's basically inert and won't be affected by weather, and who cares if it gets wet.

Based on your prior posts about your intended role for your Marlin, my suggestion is to get the 336A with the birch stock. Then if you cannot afford plastic replacements right away, refinish them with spray-on bedliner as used in pickup trucks. That'll give you a non glare, weather resistant, super tough finish.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Nem,

I don't know what scale rates the "hardness" of wood. I don't know how much it actually matters for practical use either. I think the use of birch on less expensive lines of firearms has more to do with cost than with durability or hardness. Walnut is traditional, as in 'blued steel and walnut.' It's expensive, so "lesser" or "economy" lines get birch or synthetic furniture.

In my relatively limited experience birch is tougher than walnut, I have never broken a stock made of either but birch seems to 'ding' less easily than walnut, and of course synthetics less easily than either. In working on stocks (shortening, fitting, installing sling swivels etc.) it also seems that birch is harder than walnut. During the recent holidays I installed a rail for a Z-5 weaponlight on the fore-end of my 79-yr-old mom's .22. It's a Marlin Model 60 with a birch stock that's more than 20 years old. It was hard as a rock, hard enough to make a twist drill smoke a bit as I enlarged a hole slightly to countersink a bracket inside the channel cut for the magazine tube.

For a long term use working gun, I'd prefer a good laminate if wood is on the menu, and best of all a good thick-walled synthetic if one can be found, But most synthetics are thin, noisy and relatively fragile feeling, only if there were something like a Speedfeed II available would i go with a synthetic over a good laminate.

HTH,

lpl/nc

 

[AStone]

Thanks for continued information, folks. This is helping a lot.

Lee, I hear you re synthetic stocks. I've got one on my 870, and really like it a lot. I'm pondering one for the 336, too, if I can't live with wood or with Dave's suggestion of bedliner coating.

The most intriguing synthetic rifle stocks I've found so far are those produced by Wild Dog (Australia, but they have a center in the US, as well). I'm told that soon they're going to produce a stock for the 336, but: 1) it's going to be manufactured differently than their others, reportedly of lesser quality than their carbon and fibreglass composite stocks (but don't quote me on that, cause I don't remember the details and could {hope I am} be wrong) and 2) they will fit 336 barrel band models only, not those with fore end caps (i.e, C & W, not an A). That's disappointing, because I want an A for reasons I describe in other threads.

I haven't even seen one yet, let alone handled one, but they look interesting and are getting good reviews. There's a picture on this page (scroll down) of their prototype stock for a 336.

 

[JohnBT]

"Walnut may technically be a "hardwood""

It is, there's no technically about it, you can look it up. And throwing the word hardwood around without say precisely which kind - birch, beech, etc. - is about as useful as saying walnut without saying which kind of walnut - Claro, English, Black, etc. They have different characteristics that affect the usage.

John

 

[jimmyraythomason]

SPRAY ON BEDLINER

I am intrigued by this. Have you used it,personally? Does it work well on wood? I have used the commercial synthetic stock refinish from Brownells but haven't gotten a satisfactory finish.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Gunstock wood Again

JohnBT; For the purpose of this thread I am speaking primarily about the TYPICAL production woods used by the arms manufacturers. The TYPICAL "hardwood" is BIRCH, the TYPICAL "Walnut" is American Walnut. ANYONE familiar with firearms knows that when referring to gunstocks Hardwood DOES NOT mean Walnut. All the other wonderful walnuts are GENERALLY only used by custom stockmakers custom shops and GENERALLY are not used on production guns (yes,there are exceptions). Now, I have stated my position you are free to disagree. Disagreement is okay but I'm beginning to think that you are trying to pick a fight.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I am intrigued by this. Have you used it,personally? Does it work well on wood? I have used the commercial synthetic stock refinish from Brownells but haven't gotten a satisfactory finish.

Haven't used it myself but I've read on forums several posts by guys who have, and with good results. I figure if it's tough enough to be out in the elements 24x7x365, and have stuff tossed on top and dragged around on it, it should be fine for use on a gun stock.

 

[Tokugawa]

Nem, i have personally immersed my 870 with a birch stock in the Kongakut river. Actually thought I had lost it , till I found it under one of the raft seats. This gun has been carried a lot in AK., and none the worse for wear in a functional sense. One thing I did discover though- 100% deet insect repellent is very effective at removing the remington finish!

 

[AStone]

100% deet insect repellent is very effective at removing the remington finish!

<chuckles>

I can only imagine what it may be doing to our skin
(that may be worse than mosquito mouthpart damage).



On the up side, birch is sounding better all the time...

 

[Tokugawa]

Regarding deet--Yeah, I had the same thought- but it is amazing how a cloud of very hungry bugs can push all other concerns from your mind....!!! Pity the caribou , standing in the middle of the last remaining snow patch to try and keep the bugs away.
Birch and beech have never been "glamour woods", but have a long history being used for workbenches, hand tools, and other utilitarian purposes. Sometimes "pretty" is irrelevant.

 

[Silver Bullet]

Regarding trigger modifications: here's a thread where someone had the action of his 336 in .35 modified, and subsequently ran into issues feeding the new Hornady Leverevolution cartridges.

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=14251&highlight=follower

It's not definite from the thread that the modification is the source of his problems, but I would be suspicious.

I've seen other threads with similar problems, but I think every thread I saw was for the .35 rifle, not the .30-30.