Questions about VFG/AFG positions

[Broken11b]

Okay, lately I've been seeing lots of vertical fore grips and angled fore grips mounted way forward. I sometimes assumed it was either from lack of proper instruction or some giant with ergonomic issues.

All the professional training I've received taught me to have the VFG (if present) as close to the rear as comfortable. A tight small package with easy weapon retention and control.

But now I'm seeing quite a few professionals/competition shooters using a grip position that seems to be as far forward as possible, or at least much further than my old ways.

I know that what competition shooters do will continue to change and evolve, as will what goes for tactics and combat practices. Is this the new school of thought for competition?

Every time i try the the forward grip, my time on target, time between shots, and transition time between targets rises by no small margin. Am I missing something here?

 

[nalioth]

Lots of folks miss out on the physiological aspects of the VFG/AFG (hey d00d! I've got the tactikewl kewlness for my high-speed gun)

Pick up your rifle with a VFG/AFG and assume a firing stance.

Have a friend remove the weapon and think about your position.

Look familiar?

 

[nwilliams]

I prefer holding it this way. I'm not a big fan of vertical foregrips, I just don't feel like it's a very stable position. Having your support hand higher up and closer to the end of the muzzle just feels natural and it feels like I have much more control. A full on vertical grip with your hand all the way below the handguard or even around the magwell just feels awkward to me. When Magpul came out with the AFG I was all over it! I would never go back to a vertical grip after installing the AFG.

There's a good article here on foregrip placement....
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes

I think another benefit to having your hand out further is that it mimics how you properly point a handgun. As Jessie Abbate demonstrates so well in the pic below.


Happen to see a similarity?

 

[StarDust1]

Speaking for myself, I suffer from bilateral epichondilitus(hope thats spelled correctly)in both elbows! After multiple cortisone injections(about a dozen)I've found that the mounting of the VFG as far forward as is possible reduces the stress placed on those joints while affording me maximum control of the weapon.
IMO as far forward as you can go is an ergonomically superior position....

 

[nalioth]

I think another benefit to having your hand out further is that it mimics how you properly point a handgun.

. . . except you don't run a handgun like you a rifle/carbine.

That's why they've got different names - they're different.

You don't drive a Freightliner like you drive a Kia, even though they've both got tires and a steering wheel.

 

[Maverick223]

I really like my AFG, it feels like a more natural position to me, it is less likely to snag, and I feel it fits the appearance of the rifle much better (M17). The old VFG (YHM AR style grip) has been retired, likely permanently.

 

[jobu07]

it is less likely to snag

One of my complaints about the VFG on M4's today is just that. This is why I never put one on my weapon in combat. I was terrified of that forward grip getting snagged on a rope or seatbelt or cord got in the way somehow during all the mounting and dismounting of the vehicles. Especially getting in and out of the TC's seat.

I never thought about the angled grip in this context before. However, I may change my stubborn opinion on them now that this new piece of info is dancing around in my head.

 

[Maverick223]

I never thought about the angled grip in this context before.

IMO that is the most important feature, as long as the grip feels natural (otherwise what is the point).

Here are the before and after shots with the former YHM grip and the new AFG grip:




Note that some fitting was required, though I highly doubt this will be necessary for other platforms (my M17 has a wide grip and a low mounted rail).

 

[jobu07]

The AFG is very aesthetically pleasing on your Bushmaster Maverick. It really looks good there.

Your support hand sits a lot closer to the primary firing hand on that, though. It doesn't fit the mold of that fighting stance diagram above. But I bet it is comfy.

 

[Maverick223]

Thank you, jobu. It is pretty comfortable, the hand positioning is similar to a FNH F2000 (without the unnecessary bulk). I couldn't find one locally to try before I bought, but I am glad that I took the plunge.

 

[hatchetbearer]

Broken 11b, I am also a subscriber of putting my vfg as close to the magwell as possible, probably because im a small guy (5'9" on a good day) with stubby arms. think one of the hobbits from lord of the rings with an M16A4. putting it much farther out made me have to lock out my elbow, and that just made my arms tired faster. the female marines i served with figured this out too, once I showed them how to take off rail covers that is.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The further forward you run the forward grip, the more control you have on muzzle flip and the faster back on target, or more on target, you can stay.
It's much more comfortable to run the grip in close to the mag well for standing around with it all day, but for fighting a rifle or carbine it's not as effective.

 

[nwilliams]

. . . except you don't run a handgun like you a rifle/carbine.

That's why they've got different names - they're different.

You don't drive a Freightliner like you drive a Kia, even though they've both got tires and a steering wheel.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you look at the second image and imagine that he's holding a pistol in his right hand and then extend the right hand out to meet the left then he is set up in a handgun stance. You don't usually shoot a handgun with both elbows bent and tucked in, you extend out towards the target. You can apply this same principle of extending out towards your taget when shooting a carbine as well as a handgun. Of course people have different methods of shooting, there's no right or wrong either it works for you or doesn't. I'm just making a comparison.

 

[nalioth]

You don't usually shoot a handgun with both elbows bent and tucked in, you extend out towards the target.

I never shoot handguns as shown in your picture.


I suppose this is one subject that will never be agreed on.

 

[nwilliams]

I suppose this is one subject that will never be agreed on.

different strokes for different folks

 

[9mmepiphany]

the AFG did look strange when i first saw it, as did shooters with their supporthands so far forward. in the interest of looking for a better way of doing things, i gave it a try.

the ARG really does allow the same grip i use for my support hand when shooting a handgun. i also found that griping a carbine further forward gives you more directional control and minimizes overswinging during target transitions. the forward grip gives more of a driving/pulling feel as opposed to the pushing feel of a more rearward grip placement.

as for the handgun grip. i chose a grip much like the one pictured being used by Jessie, because it allows faster followup shots without compromising accuracy

 

[Zerodefect]

I'm suprized it took so long for the AFG to come around.

As soon as we started putting VFG's on Ar rail we realized how they stink. No recoil control at medium ranges requireing rapid fire against multiple targets.

They were nice for shooting over or through a wall. Eventually they evolved into little stubby fore grips. So you can kinda put your hand on the stock and on the VFG at the same time. Much like the AFG.

I gave up on the VFG and used the above AFG grip style, without any aFG/VFG, on regular carbine or middy handgards.

I'm expecting more AFG variations coming soon. Hopefully someone will make one that'll bolt to the stock M4 carbine handgard vent holes.

 

[Dionysusigma]

A glaring problem with making comparisons to the above image is that nobody has made a single comment about the angle of the RIGHT hand.

If it was a perfect example, all pistol grips on anything with a buttstock would be angled forward as well.

And, Maverick223, I'm quite jealous of your M17S.

Thread-related question: How far to the rear can the AFG be mounted before it bumps into something? I've been looking all evening for pictures of one placed rearward, but everyone seems to want to hang the thing practically in front of the muzzle.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A glaring problem with making comparisons to the above image is that nobody has made a single comment about the angle of the RIGHT hand.

If it was a perfect example, all pistol grips on anything with a buttstock would be angled forward as well.

it's because you're using a picture of a boxing stance as opposed to a more developed martial arts stance...more years of development

 

[Maverick223]

Thank you for the kind words, Dionysusigma.

How far to the rear can the AFG be mounted before it bumps into something?

On the M17...about a half an inch, anything else you can push as far back as you like (and have P-rail for). There is no stop on the front, so you can place it where you like (it just has a "key" to lock into the rail slot). Personally I would move mine forward a bit if I had a good alternate spot for the sling swivel.

 

[benEzra]

I think part of the rationale for mounting a VFG far to the rear was to get your elbows all tucked in and your body square to the target, sacrificing a little control of the weapon for easier movement in close quarters as part of a tactical team, and a little better body armor coverage (presenting the front plate to the target). From a non-LEO civilian standpoint, those considerations don't necessarily apply.

I used to run a close grip shooting USPSA when I was shooting an AK (which approximates the position of a close-in VFG on an AR) but then started experimenting with a far-forward, thumb-over-top-of-handguard grip and found I have a lot more ability to swing the rifle quickly and stop it on a dime when driving the gun from target to target, and have better recoil control. When shooting an AR, I use the same technique.

I think it boils down to "use whatever works best for you", but I do think the pendulum seems to be swinging toward putting the support hand further forward. Obviously, it's easier to do that with a midlength or rifle length handguard than with carbine length handguards.

 

[Maverick223]

I think it boils down to "use whatever works best for you", but I do think the pendulum seems to be swinging toward putting the support hand further forward. Obviously, it's easier to do that with a midlength or rifle length handguard than with carbine length handguards.

One of the good things about a bullpup configuration is it doesn't matter much where you grip (or but the AFG/VFG), it balances on the primary grip anyway (at least the one above does). In my case the grip is primarily for a nice cool surface (the Al. upper gets mighty warm after 100rnds or so of rapid aimed fire). The AFG works just as well (and feels more natural) and gets in the way less. Target acquisition seems to be a little quicker with it farther out, but only by a negligible difference.

 

[Driftertank]

I'm not a fan of VFG's really. But I seem to have a thing for relatively big guns...

I've been chewing it over in my mind and contemplating how placement would effect my grip and stance. Having a VFG further back would tend to close up my stance, and I would tend to tuck it into my shoulder more. Better for CQB movement and fluidity. With the VFG mounted further forward, I would tend to lead a little more with my offside foot, and also lead a little more with my offside hand, more like a wingshooter. I would think if I was shooting for score, I would want it a little further forward. If I was dismounting a vehicle, clearing a building, or wearing armor, I would want it tucked closer in.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Every time i try the the forward grip, my time on target, time between shots, and transition time between targets rises by no small margin.

To me, this is the key part. If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you. However, my experience has been the opposite - especially when I am moving and shooting or transitioning between targets. On both of those, being able to grab far forward reduces my times. I am a big fan of the AFG as well.

For me, the ideal spot for shooting is as far forward as you can comfortably put the grip. The less mass in front of your support hand, the easier it is to point it where you want it to go. If I need to carry at the ready for long times, I'll go back to a magwell hold and rest my elbows on top of my mag pouches and make the shoulder straps of my chest rig support the weight. Or pretty much what HorseSoldier said more succinctly several posts earlier

 

[Zach S]

I have mine mounted about 1/4 way up the fore end (the end closer to the magwell). The VFG works better for me in close, while it does alright at longer ranges. Gripping further forward on the HGs works for longer ranges, and does alright in close.

I shoot a dissipator-style carbine, so I've got the option of either one.

I haven't tried the AFG yet. Plan to though. Someday...