Questions about WM Parkhurst

[borrowedtime69]

So, I may get possession of a WM Parkhurst side by side 12 gauge with a label of "Damascus steel finish" for what its worth, as i know the secret of real Damascus has been lost. It says black powder but not a muzzle loading one. i think i remember being told not to use modern shot shells in it?? does anyone have a link to a good, basic tutorial for what and how to use it & what shells and powder to use, etc., etc.?

its a beautiful firearm with a near perfect patina; it seems mechanically sound with the trigger, action & such working well. the stock, butt & forearm, were carved, but it sort of looks like it wasn't done by a real professional stock worker, but its not horrible, gives it a look of over 100 years ago, maybe done by an owner during a long winter (i wax poetic... LOL). so, any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated! & if you say i shouldnt use it, i'll understand. Thank you!

 

[Jim Watson]

Most likely cheap Belgian made for New York importers Schoverling, Daly, and Gales. Just possibly from a small English maker, not necessarily better quality.
If in sound condition, a brave man might shoot it with black powder shells.
Not me.

"Damascus steel finish" for what its worth, as i know the secret of real Damascus has been lost.

I consider "real Damascus" to be sword blade Damascus made from Indian wootz. There has been work done but I don't know if anybody has truly duplicated the methods and metallurgy.

Forge welded laminated Damascus barrels are a well documented product, I have even seen a video of work in the last Belgian makers' shop post WW I.

Back when the various forge welded barrels, Damascus, wire twist, stub twist, etc. etc. were still considered the class act and the advantages of solid steel not yet realized, there were "Damascus finish" barrels with decal or etched patterns. W.W. Greener called them "sham Dam."

Greener is still in business with a member of the Greener family in charge. They will build you a shotgun with an extra set of Damascus barrels left over from their last production in 1903. I don't know if they are nitro proved, but such are available. Price a little higher than a Parkhurst.

 

[paul harm]

The secret of real Damascus is not lost. Back in the 90s I went to a class on making Damascus and have made it ever since for knife blades. There are many bladesmiths doing the same. If it says Damascus finish it's just plain steel made to look like Damascus because back then Damascus barrels were stronger than a lap welded steel barrel. Here in the states Remington came up with a method of drawing out a 9" hollow tube of solid steel into a barrel. This did away with lap welded barrels. They sold them world wide. Should you shoot it ? That's up to you. I personal shoot 9 or 10 old Damascus barrel SxSs every week [ one or the other ] and put on a SxS shoot every year for the past 17yrs and many old SxSs are shot, Damascus and steel. All of us shoot nitro reloads. We try to keep pressures under 8500psi out of respect for the stocks, not so much the barrels.

On the barrels under the forearm where you can sand a little finish off apply some Ferric Chloride or finger nail polish remover . If it's real Damascus the pattern will show up.

There was a bladesmith maybe 15 or 20 years ago that did figger out how to make wootz steel. As I remember he said it was too labor intensive to make and doesn't make it anymore. Can't remember his name.

 

[ThomasT]

In a couple of the old Rifle/Handloader magazines Ross Seyfried had an offer of some sort if anyone could show him a Damascus barrel that had been blown up by nitro loads. He said no one ever claimed the prize. Would I shoot smokeless in a Damascus gun? Probably not but its a moot point since I don't have one anyway. And if I had one it would be shot with BP only so there's that.

Its pretty easy to hand load once fired hulls with BP and fiber wads and bare shot like original loads. And you don't need a press to do it. Home made tools work just fine. Thats how I load my .410 shells. Maybe even try some brass shells and reload those.

 

[Jim Watson]

My neighbor the gunsmith had a cheap shotgun with laminate barrels on the wall.
A plug about an inch by two was blown out of the left barrel, right about where your left hand would grasp.
That was in accordance with the then thinking that Damascus barrels tapered more rapidly because of the short burn time of black and that a progressive smokeless would carry its pressure farther along into the thin walled region of the tube.

Paul Jaeger had a nice Damascus shotgun with blown barrel in the rack in his shop in Germantown, PA. I didn't ask, but wonder if he was hoping somebody would come along and buy it to be rebarrelled instead of doing such a major project on speculation.

 

[ThomasT]

That was in accordance with the then thinking that Damascus barrels tapered more rapidly because of the short burn time of black and that a progressive smokeless would carry its pressure farther along into the thin walled region of the tube.

I have always heard that while black powder lights up fast it actually has a long burn time. That was one of the reasons for the long barrels on the old Kentucky and Pennsylvania rifles was to take advantage of the long burn and get the most out of the powder charge.

If you look at the tables in the Lyman black powder manual the longer barrels always have more velocity than the shorter barrels. Especially the smaller bored guns. The bigger bores don't seem to benefit as much from a longer barrel but still do get some boost with a longer barrel.

On an old gun like your friends have you never know if someone who reloaded their shells with black powder got a hold of some of the new smokeless powders and loaded the same charges and blew out their barrels. I think that was a common occurrence in the early smokeless days.

 

[Jim Watson]

Until somebody publishes full profile pressure readings, it is just chit chat. Did the guy who promoted nitro for black in the Double Gun Journal have any such data?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I would shoot it, stick to blackpowder loads, I shoot a Parker from 1906 with damascus barrels and use either black powder or(gasp!) Pyrodex. One thing I would do is look at the forcing cones, they are most likely short, Brownells sells a reamer to lengthen them.

 

[Jim Watson]

Parker took care with their barrels and most Parker owners took care of their guns.
Can we say the same about a Parkhurst?
If the OP would show close clear pictures, we could get a handle on its condition and whether it would be safe with what it was shot with when new.

 

[paul harm]

Of the twenty Damascus barrel " wall hangers " given to Sherman Bell to destroy, none blew up with Remington " proof loads ". Those where 18,500psi loads. Twelve ga loads are kept under 11,500 psi. Those guns had deeply pitted barrels, many loose on face and some with ribs that were loose. Tom Armburst was testing the loads as they crept up to 30,000psi on one Parker. Somewhere around 32,000psi the barrels finally blew up. All the guns, as I remember, where Parker, Remington, or LC Smith. Sherman always thought the better named guns had better steel in their Damascus. He latter did test of cheap Belgium imports with just Damascus Twist barrels. They also wouldn't blow with proof loads. Is this to say ALL Damascus barrels are safe ? NO. But it does say all aren't unsafe, as many believe. There are also regular steel barrel shotguns with blown barrels. When they blow in the chamber, it's from too much pressure. When they blow up down the barrels it's from an obstruction in the barrel.

Shooting old guns just takes some common sense. Would you want to shoot +P loads in a old 38 special ? No. Do I shoot hot 45 loads in my old 45s ? No. So if I keep my reloads for Damascus guns to BP pressure loads I feel safe.

In the early smokeless days there was first bulk smokeless powder that could be loaded with the same measures that were used with BP. Then came smokeless with nitro and that used far less powder. Many guys didn't realize this and kept using the same measures resulting in overloads. A normal load today is between 15 and 21grs. Try using up to a 100grs and see what happens. This is one of the reasons Damascus barrels got a bad name. The British have always, even today, proof tested guns with Damascus barrels. The national proof houses don't say throw away any gun because it has Damascus barrels.

 

[Jim Watson]

But how is the user to know the difference? We don't have government proof houses here that test guns under controlled conditions and I don't think Remington will sell me proof loads.

 

[paul harm]

Got called away - repairman was here. Anyways, I also have a 1882 Remington 10ga SxS with Damascus barrels, and a 40 cal rifle barrel liner that fits in the left barrel. It to is Damascus and takes a 2.5" Sharps cartridge. I shoot a load with 4198 - a Sherman Bell recipe. I always felt that Damascus gun barrels will never be made again and each one is a work of art. I wouldn't buy a old SxS if it wasn't Damascus. I have around a dozen old SxSs, all Remington, Parker, or Lefever. Only three are steel barrel, my 1894 Remington F grade trap guns.

 

[paul harm]

That's up to each individual. If you're not comfortable shooting Damascus guns, then don't. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to shoot them, but was just trying to dispel some myths about Damascus. I would venture a guess 99 out of a 100 blown gun barrels are the fault of someone incorrectly loading shells or a obstruction in the barrel, not the type of steel. I do know that myself, friends, and friends I only see once or twice a year shoot Damascus barrel SxSs and no one has had a problem. One thing to look out for are thin barrels. People over the years hone out the barrels to remove pits and remove too much steel. That's where the money well spent for a wall thickness gauge pays off. Good luck to all and have fun shooting.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a guy here who was ok with shooting Damascus. His working guns were Remington doubles, mostly exposed hammer models. As he put it, solidly built and common enough to actually use.
He shot Trap with one, complete with adjustable stock and screw choke. Common enough to modify without upsetting collectors at the time. I think that one had steel barrels but he shot the Damascus, too.

He picked his powder based on a graph in an old NRA manual that showed SOME smokeless as having similar pressure curve to black. I think Green Dot was the closest currently available. He used the wads that built pressure the least, the odd Lage Uniwad. The system worked for him.

 

[paul harm]

I would have liked to meet him seeing how I also love my old Remington SxSs. I have three hammerguns, a 73, 82, and a 89. Also six 94 hammerless, A, B, C grade and three F grade guns. The F grade say " trap" on the right barrel, are straight grip guns with ejectors. It's fun shooting doubles with a double. As for powder, I've used Red Dot, Green Dot, American Select, e3, 700X, Nitro 100, Solo, PB and some others that don't come to mind right now. Most the pressure is with in the shotgun shell when it goes off, so I've never worried about pressure curves. With 3/4oz loads and Claybuster wads, 5500psi loads at 1200fps can be had. Being a old fart and not liking recoil I stick to 3/4oz loads in the 12ga and 1oz in my 10s. With those light shot charges there are many low pressure loads that break claybirds just fine. The Ithaca and Remington both use the Anson and Deeley action , as many guns do. It's one of the simplest actions with the least moving parts. Designed in 1875 and still used today. I shoot about 1200 shells a week and only one firing pin in a Parker hammergun and two top lever springs in my 94s is all I've ever replaced.