P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
SAS ........ UK ..... ''Special Air Service'' ... elite counter-terrorist and spec' ops unit of Brit Military. One step beyond ''para's'' many reckon. Comparable to U.S. Navy Seals.
Questions and Contributions Please! THR Library Update
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Chuck Dye
Member
Last I heard, it is the Special Boat Service, SBS, that is the SEAL equivalent. As is often true of the best, they do not get or seek publicity.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Actually Huck ....yeah .... I think you are right there.
marklbucla
Member
I didn't see it in the glossary yet, so how about the terms relating to triggers?
Overtravel, creep, slack, etc...
Overtravel, creep, slack, etc...
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
probably several ways to describe these but .. let's try ...
1] Slack ..... the amount of movement to take up before trigger begins to actuate the mechanism. Sometimes intentional as in Enfield's ''first pressure''. In a handgun tho, undesirable if to excess. In a rifle, acceptable IMO if predictable and consistent.
2] Creep ... A ''hesitant'' ''notchy'' or ''unsmooth'' feel as trigger pressure and travel is increased. The sear and trigger notch are moving one on the other with changes in feel ... such that the progression to the trigger ''breaking'' is inconsistent. Probably due in most cases to badly finished surfaces. Does not inspire confidence and good control.
3] Overtravel ..... once the trigger has ''broken'' and hammer released (or striker) ... this is the remaining travel experienced rearward. A small amount is normal and acceptable but to excess, this is undesirable. The reason for which trigger stops are sometimes built in to the trigger itself. That motion is wasted motion and is best adjusted out. I consider it of most importance with regard to double action.
4] Poundage ... The actual force required to operate a trigger. For single action, smoothness is preferable to just low poundage IMO. With double action ... same again .. the ease with which the pull can be managed matters more than just the force required. Within reason of course.
sensop
Member
I just read through this thread quickly. 'Didn't see any explanation of "point blank". It's an often (almost always) misused term.
Another clarification in usage needed is the use of "caliber" (calibre) in place of "chambering". Calibre is an expression of the bore diameter or, probably more correctly, bullet diameter. A good definition of "chambering" is the collection of dimensions that define the cartridge and its corresponding chamber. BTW, they are never exactly the same: some "slop' is required between the chamber and the cartridge.
Real story:
Q: "What caliber is that rifle?"
A: "It's in .308 caliber."
Q: "No, I mean what does it shoot?"
A: "What do you mean 'What does it shoot?' Deer, hogs, whatever is in season."
Q: "No, I mean what kind of bullets does it shoot?"
A: "Let's see, right now, I'm shooting a handload and I've loaded some Hornady 150 grain Spitzers."
Q: "No, dammit, ... what the hell kind of cartridge is the damn thing chambered for?"
A: "Oh, that would be a .30-'06. Sheesh! Why didn't you ask that in the first place?"
Here's a variation on that theme ... also a true encounter:
Q: "What caliber is that rifle?"
A: "It's in .308."
Q: "I like the .30-'06 better myself."
A: "What do you mean?"
Q: "I mean I like the .30-'06 better than the .308."
A: "This rifle is in .30-'06."
Q: "But you said it was a .308."
A: "You asked me what the caliber was, not what the rifle was chambered to shoot. It's chambered for the Springfield .30-'06 cartridge, which shoots a .308 caliber bullet."
Q: "Oh. 'Kinda anal about our terminology, aren't we?"
A: "How would you know? It's obviously not OUR terminology."
:banghead:
Any one want to take a stab at "point blank"? As in point blank range?
Another clarification in usage needed is the use of "caliber" (calibre) in place of "chambering". Calibre is an expression of the bore diameter or, probably more correctly, bullet diameter. A good definition of "chambering" is the collection of dimensions that define the cartridge and its corresponding chamber. BTW, they are never exactly the same: some "slop' is required between the chamber and the cartridge.
Real story:
Q: "What caliber is that rifle?"
A: "It's in .308 caliber."
Q: "No, I mean what does it shoot?"
A: "What do you mean 'What does it shoot?' Deer, hogs, whatever is in season."
Q: "No, I mean what kind of bullets does it shoot?"
A: "Let's see, right now, I'm shooting a handload and I've loaded some Hornady 150 grain Spitzers."
Q: "No, dammit, ... what the hell kind of cartridge is the damn thing chambered for?"
A: "Oh, that would be a .30-'06. Sheesh! Why didn't you ask that in the first place?"
Here's a variation on that theme ... also a true encounter:
Q: "What caliber is that rifle?"
A: "It's in .308."
Q: "I like the .30-'06 better myself."
A: "What do you mean?"
Q: "I mean I like the .30-'06 better than the .308."
A: "This rifle is in .30-'06."
Q: "But you said it was a .308."
A: "You asked me what the caliber was, not what the rifle was chambered to shoot. It's chambered for the Springfield .30-'06 cartridge, which shoots a .308 caliber bullet."
Q: "Oh. 'Kinda anal about our terminology, aren't we?"
A: "How would you know? It's obviously not OUR terminology."
:banghead:
Any one want to take a stab at "point blank"? As in point blank range?
BluesBear
member
Picky, picky, picky
Caliber
Main Entry: cal·i·ber
Variant(s): or cal·i·bre /'ka-l&-b&r, British also k&-'lE-/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French calibre, from Old Italian calibro, from Arabic qAlib shoemaker's last
1 a : degree of mental capacity or moral quality b : degree of excellence or importance
2 a : the diameter of a bullet or other projectile b : the diameter of a bore of a gun usually expressed in hundredths or thousandths of an inch and typically written as a decimal fraction <.32 caliber>
3 : the diameter of a round body; especially : the internal diameter of a hollow cylinder
Point Blank
Main Entry: point-blank
Pronunciation: 'point-'bla[ng]k
Function: adjective
1 a : marked by no appreciable drop below initial horizontal line of flight b : so close to a target that a missile fired will travel in a straight line to the mark
2 : DIRECT, BLUNT <a point-blank refusal>
- point-blank adverb
Caliber
Main Entry: cal·i·ber
Variant(s): or cal·i·bre /'ka-l&-b&r, British also k&-'lE-/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French calibre, from Old Italian calibro, from Arabic qAlib shoemaker's last
1 a : degree of mental capacity or moral quality b : degree of excellence or importance
2 a : the diameter of a bullet or other projectile b : the diameter of a bore of a gun usually expressed in hundredths or thousandths of an inch and typically written as a decimal fraction <.32 caliber>
3 : the diameter of a round body; especially : the internal diameter of a hollow cylinder
Point Blank
Main Entry: point-blank
Pronunciation: 'point-'bla[ng]k
Function: adjective
1 a : marked by no appreciable drop below initial horizontal line of flight b : so close to a target that a missile fired will travel in a straight line to the mark
2 : DIRECT, BLUNT <a point-blank refusal>
- point-blank adverb
sensop
Member
I love Merriam-Webster Online and use it all the time.
Actually, I ran across a definition of point-blank range a few years back that makes all these only partial definitions. I am still looking for that source again, so as to not take credit for it. However, it goes something like this:
Point blank range is that maximum range at which a circle which defines the target area (meaning desired impact area) and projected back to the muzzle of the firearm (forming a "tube") forms the boundary of the volume from which the projectile will not exit in its travel from muzzle to target impact.
In other words, it's the max range at which the boreline may be placed in the center of the target impact area and hit the target, and the bullet not leave the boundary of the point blank "tube", from muzzle to target. It's not defined by just bullet drop from boreline. It allows for the bullet to rise above and below the boreline but not leave the "tube" boundary.
So, a 150 yd zero with a .30-30 rifle shooting a 170 gr bullet is not within point blank range unless the target area is something on the order of 8 or 9 inches in diameter (I'm estimating). That's because the rise and fall of the bullet have to stay in the boundary of that "tube" defined by the target area, projected back to and centered on, the muzzle. If the target area is only 3 inches in diameter, the point blank range is a lot shorter.
For very flat shooting cartridges and large target areas, the point blank range can be a fair distance. For slow heavy bullets (.45 ACP) and small target areas, it can be just a few yards. BUT, it is always beyond physical contact distance. That would be within the point blank range but not AT point blank range. Point blank range for a .45 ACP with factory loads and a target area defined as a man's upper body area could reasonably be estimated to be out as far as 30 yards.
Practically speaking, I have not reconciled for myself is how a scope would fit in this definition. So I always assume a sight line close to the bore.
For those of us that find all this tedious and boring, think about it the next time you hear a reference to point blank range on the news or in a movie.
Actually, I ran across a definition of point-blank range a few years back that makes all these only partial definitions. I am still looking for that source again, so as to not take credit for it. However, it goes something like this:
Point blank range is that maximum range at which a circle which defines the target area (meaning desired impact area) and projected back to the muzzle of the firearm (forming a "tube") forms the boundary of the volume from which the projectile will not exit in its travel from muzzle to target impact.
In other words, it's the max range at which the boreline may be placed in the center of the target impact area and hit the target, and the bullet not leave the boundary of the point blank "tube", from muzzle to target. It's not defined by just bullet drop from boreline. It allows for the bullet to rise above and below the boreline but not leave the "tube" boundary.
So, a 150 yd zero with a .30-30 rifle shooting a 170 gr bullet is not within point blank range unless the target area is something on the order of 8 or 9 inches in diameter (I'm estimating). That's because the rise and fall of the bullet have to stay in the boundary of that "tube" defined by the target area, projected back to and centered on, the muzzle. If the target area is only 3 inches in diameter, the point blank range is a lot shorter.
For very flat shooting cartridges and large target areas, the point blank range can be a fair distance. For slow heavy bullets (.45 ACP) and small target areas, it can be just a few yards. BUT, it is always beyond physical contact distance. That would be within the point blank range but not AT point blank range. Point blank range for a .45 ACP with factory loads and a target area defined as a man's upper body area could reasonably be estimated to be out as far as 30 yards.
Practically speaking, I have not reconciled for myself is how a scope would fit in this definition. So I always assume a sight line close to the bore.
For those of us that find all this tedious and boring, think about it the next time you hear a reference to point blank range on the news or in a movie.
Alexey931
Member
Breechblock again
Breechblock: a movable piece of metal for closing the breech in certain firearms. (Random House Dictionary)
Do anybody care to explain what exactly are those certain firearms?
Best regards
Breechblock: a movable piece of metal for closing the breech in certain firearms. (Random House Dictionary)
Do anybody care to explain what exactly are those certain firearms?
Best regards
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Alexey .. Breechblock ..... we had earlier in the thread something explaining ''falling block'' ... this actually I think helps on this one. The falling block can be called a ''breechblock'' .... so falling block underleaver guns would qualify. Going up in scale then we have stuff like big howitzers .. with a pivotted, swing-out ''breechblock'' ... put simply ... a substantial ''door'' that is closed and locked. 16" naval guns ... same idea .... the blocks are locked by interlocking segments, male (breechblock) and female (breech) ... rather like portions of screw thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sensop ... what you mention is indeed the ''alternative'' ... I have come across this before too. I remember on another board trying to explain to a guy what we meant by saying ''bullet is on the rise'' when talking about scopes, bore axes etc ..... and did this little diagram ..... the same could apply with this ''point blank'' deal .. the trajectory line as you say remaining in the imaginary ''tube''. The bullet passes twice thru the imaginary sight line.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sensop ... what you mention is indeed the ''alternative'' ... I have come across this before too. I remember on another board trying to explain to a guy what we meant by saying ''bullet is on the rise'' when talking about scopes, bore axes etc ..... and did this little diagram ..... the same could apply with this ''point blank'' deal .. the trajectory line as you say remaining in the imaginary ''tube''. The bullet passes twice thru the imaginary sight line.
MagKnightX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2003
- Messages
- 867
I know I already asked this in this thread, but I never got an answer:
What does BA/UU/R mean?
What does BA/UU/R mean?
El Tejon
Member
Buy Ammo/Use Up/Repeat [and then Rinse]
Alexey931
Member
Breechblock
It's all right with me. I'm just trying to figure out what can possibly be a 'breechblock' and what can not. For instance, in an English glossary of one German book the H&K roller delayed locking assembly is called breechblock. So falling block, big cannons, an odd (H&K) design, what else and why not everything else except, probably, the bolt and slide?
Best regards
It's all right with me. I'm just trying to figure out what can possibly be a 'breechblock' and what can not. For instance, in an English glossary of one German book the H&K roller delayed locking assembly is called breechblock. So falling block, big cannons, an odd (H&K) design, what else and why not everything else except, probably, the bolt and slide?
Best regards
BluesBear
member
Well technically, bolts and slides are breechblocks. They're just not usually referenced as that.
The breechface contains the hole for the firing pin. So you could say that the breechface is on the breechblock.
The breechface contains the hole for the firing pin. So you could say that the breechface is on the breechblock.
Alexey931
Member
Breech face
I've always been thinking that breech face is the rear end of the barrel, as opposite to the muzzle face. Is it also possible?
Best regards
I've always been thinking that breech face is the rear end of the barrel, as opposite to the muzzle face. Is it also possible?
Best regards
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Alexey . I thgink, as ever, with terminology - there has to be some ''elasticity''!! For the most part ... ''we'' know what ''they'' mean .... tho things can be cvouched in slightly different terms sometimes!
Not really sure sometimes what is actually ''definitive'' with descriptions sometimes!!
For me ''breechface'' is pretty much the chamber end of the barrel .. for Bear .... the breechblock. It matters not really ... cos in the end .. most stuff is understandable thru context anyways.
I think sometimes we need to look at the earliest firearms .. and how the various parts were described .. but as we get more modern these terms get transcribed to the ''new'' mechanisms and designs .. not always perhaps quite faithfully.
''Once more, unto the breech, dear friends .............''
Not really sure sometimes what is actually ''definitive'' with descriptions sometimes!!
For me ''breechface'' is pretty much the chamber end of the barrel .. for Bear .... the breechblock. It matters not really ... cos in the end .. most stuff is understandable thru context anyways.
I think sometimes we need to look at the earliest firearms .. and how the various parts were described .. but as we get more modern these terms get transcribed to the ''new'' mechanisms and designs .. not always perhaps quite faithfully.
''Once more, unto the breech, dear friends .............''
BluesBear
member
I was taught that the breechface was equal to the boltface, except on a gun without a bolt. Such as a Remington Rolling Block or a Browning designed Winchester Falling Block.
But, since the breech is, in essence, the chamber, I guess you could also call the edge of the chamber opening, the breech face.
But, since the breech is, in essence, the chamber, I guess you could also call the edge of the chamber opening, the breech face.
Alexey931
Member
Ammo boxes and other things
Ammunition comes in boxes. Boxes come in a number of different things. I'd like to enumerate all the accessories which have something to do with packageing of ammo. For instance, some odd questions on the subject:
What is a gridlike thing with cells where rounds are seated inside a box?
What is a metal can containing a number of ammo boxes which has to be opened with a can opener?
What is a battlepack?
Best regards
Ammunition comes in boxes. Boxes come in a number of different things. I'd like to enumerate all the accessories which have something to do with packageing of ammo. For instance, some odd questions on the subject:
What is a gridlike thing with cells where rounds are seated inside a box?
What is a metal can containing a number of ammo boxes which has to be opened with a can opener?
What is a battlepack?
Best regards
Alexey931
Member
NRR
NRR: ?
Best regards
NRR: ?
Best regards
BluesBear
member
Hydrostatic Shock ??
It was recently said in another thread;
Hydrostatic refers to a fluid at REST not in motion. Hydrostatic pressure is a factor in the design of submersible watercraft. It's also very important to divers.
Are they referring to something along the lines of a hydrokinetic pressure?
Hydrokinetic refers to fluids in motion.
Hydrokinetic pressure (which I suppose could be referred to as Hydrokinetic Shock) could cause tissue damage due to fluids displaced by a bullet in motion.
Of course someone somewhere might actually have a fact based definition of Hydrostatic Shock. If so I'd love to be educated.
It was recently said in another thread;
Would someone PLEASE define for me Hydrostatic Shock?
Hydrostatic refers to a fluid at REST not in motion. Hydrostatic pressure is a factor in the design of submersible watercraft. It's also very important to divers.
Are they referring to something along the lines of a hydrokinetic pressure?
Hydrokinetic refers to fluids in motion.
Hydrokinetic pressure (which I suppose could be referred to as Hydrokinetic Shock) could cause tissue damage due to fluids displaced by a bullet in motion.
Of course someone somewhere might actually have a fact based definition of Hydrostatic Shock. If so I'd love to be educated.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Bear .. I think it has become such a long used misnomer it is all but accepted. To me Hydrostatics are dealing with stuff like ..... at 33 feet depth in water the head of pressure is 1 atmos ... all that kinda stuff.
I think myself the only viable term is Hydraulic ..... the effects on fluids due to input of kinetic energy .. work put in .... fluid transfers said energy. Fluids are as we know treated as incompressible and thus .. when energy is put into the system ... those fluids will transmit the energy beyond the source.. disturbing all areas in vicinity.
In the body .. this shows up as a fluid shock wave .. the energy being absorbed thru disruption of the area surrounding. This is why IMO cavitation occurs .. and the elastic limit of many structures is or can be easily exceeded and so from max cavitation in say the first millisecond after impact ... there is then a degree of recovery, or not .. dependent on nature of projectile and it's velocity etc.
Just my own coupla cents.
I think myself the only viable term is Hydraulic ..... the effects on fluids due to input of kinetic energy .. work put in .... fluid transfers said energy. Fluids are as we know treated as incompressible and thus .. when energy is put into the system ... those fluids will transmit the energy beyond the source.. disturbing all areas in vicinity.
In the body .. this shows up as a fluid shock wave .. the energy being absorbed thru disruption of the area surrounding. This is why IMO cavitation occurs .. and the elastic limit of many structures is or can be easily exceeded and so from max cavitation in say the first millisecond after impact ... there is then a degree of recovery, or not .. dependent on nature of projectile and it's velocity etc.
Just my own coupla cents.
Doc
Member
P95Carry you hit the nail on the head!
it is actually hydralic pressure caused by (?) force
of the bullet impacting tissue moving very quickly,
which causes a "hydrostatic" shockwave in the tissue.
in correct terms: an hydralic shockwave in the tissue
it is actually hydralic pressure caused by (?) force
of the bullet impacting tissue moving very quickly,
which causes a "hydrostatic" shockwave in the tissue.
in correct terms: an hydralic shockwave in the tissue
BluesBear
member
Doc, if you took one sentence in your post,
"which causes a "hydrokinetic" shockwave in the tissue."
I would agree 100% with your assessment.
and changed it to
"which causes a "hydrokinetic" shockwave in the tissue."
I would agree 100% with your assessment.
williamcrane
Member
Library Questions
How about definitions for box lock and side lock regarding shotguns?
How about definitions for box lock and side lock regarding shotguns?
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Bill - I had a quick look on the web to see if there were any convenient available diagrams .... none so far.
Not sure quite re a ''definition'' per se ..... but in descriptive terms I might try the following....
Side Lock - the original lock type for rifles and shotguns ... instigated at the very beginning for flintlock and matchlock. The key items for a lock mechanism are a hammer (which will provide energy for whatever method of ignition) .... a spring to ''power'' that hammer ..... and a trigger (with its own spring), which of course holds the hammer under tension until release required.
The main spring for a side lock is generally a very large and long ''V'' spring and this resides under the characteristic side plate, which is let into the woodwork below the breech area. The hammer will have suitable notching (sear) included for enagement with the trigger group and will for side lock be almost certainly external.
Box Lock - In this case most usually, all the springs, hammers, firing pins, safety mechanisms and linkages to trigger, are contained in a ''box'' .. this is characterized by all being behind the breech area ... and the front wall on a cartridge gun is in fact the recoil shield. I am not certain but I think that the Box Lock can also allow for external hammers ... for example, when using a muzzle loader, such that they impinge on percussion primer nipples.
This is only a two centsworth!
Not sure quite re a ''definition'' per se ..... but in descriptive terms I might try the following....
Side Lock - the original lock type for rifles and shotguns ... instigated at the very beginning for flintlock and matchlock. The key items for a lock mechanism are a hammer (which will provide energy for whatever method of ignition) .... a spring to ''power'' that hammer ..... and a trigger (with its own spring), which of course holds the hammer under tension until release required.
The main spring for a side lock is generally a very large and long ''V'' spring and this resides under the characteristic side plate, which is let into the woodwork below the breech area. The hammer will have suitable notching (sear) included for enagement with the trigger group and will for side lock be almost certainly external.
Box Lock - In this case most usually, all the springs, hammers, firing pins, safety mechanisms and linkages to trigger, are contained in a ''box'' .. this is characterized by all being behind the breech area ... and the front wall on a cartridge gun is in fact the recoil shield. I am not certain but I think that the Box Lock can also allow for external hammers ... for example, when using a muzzle loader, such that they impinge on percussion primer nipples.
This is only a two centsworth!
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