Questions for Black Bear hunters & use of bait

[stevelyn]

Baiting for black bears is allowed in Alaska in the spring only, although black bear season is pretty much open year round with a limit of three in most GMUs.

You have to register and post your bait station with your contact information. ADF&G has a standard weather resistant cardstock form for doing this.

Your bait site has to be located a 1/4 mile from any roadway and 1 mile from any dwelling. Bait stations have to be dismantled and cleaned up by close of the baiting period.

When I lived up in the interior, I had a bait stand when I had time to screw around with it. I primarily bowhunted for them and a bait station is an excellent way to position them at a known range for a clean kill. It's legal during the prescibed season and I don't have a problem with the ethics of it.

Other years when I wasn't baiting I'd hunt them more as a target of opportunity when I was running the river and sloughs.

I live on the eastern edge of Aleutian Hell now (AKPEN). We only have brown bears down this way so baiting isn't allowed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The guys I know who do it though have the dogs trained to drive the deer to certain locations. They use natural funnels to set the deer up.

My experience has been that dogs cannot drive deer. What they do is keep th deer moving -- slowly, and well ahead of the dogs -- and the deer follow the natural escape routes.

What states allow baiting bears for hunting them?

Arkansas, for one.

What states allow baiting deer or using dogs?

Arkansas, for one.

 

[SHvar]

I had no doubts about Alaska allowing it, Arkansas go figure.
Inuits hunt polar bears with their sled dogs, inuit sled dogs will attack a polar bear and not back down, that is a tough pack of dogs, then after the fight and kill, will share in eating the kill, as well transport the kill for hundreds of miles. In parts of Asia Laika dogs are used to hunt up to 1000 lb brown bears.
Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.
There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit, and those who are feeding themselves or their family with whats killed.
The discussion about coyotes and fur in another thread and the low value of fur in general has to do with demand, but again why not make use of such a good fur.
Simply put, if your gonna shoot it, make use of it, dont waste it just to hunt it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.

No, the deer were almost wiped out early in the 20th Century, primarily by habitat loss. By the 60s, state game and fish commissions were re-stocking and caring for game animals. Deer, turkies, elk and black bear were imported from states that had them, and re-established in states that didn't.

 

[dogrunner]

The major issue in using dogs, either for bear or deer, is NOT a matter of game 'depredation, rather it's an issue of landowner conflict. Truly some areas are entirely too small to permit such methods without a lot of controversy and in fact, in some areas the very terrain might prove it to be relatively ineffective.

From what I could determine, as I am a deer dog user, most of the push to prohibit use dogs for deer began as a direct result of the totally uncontrolled market hunting that existed at the end of the 19th into the early years of the 20th centurys. NY apparently outlawed such in about 1893 or 94, West Va. in about 1922 or so.........I do know that in the latter State the deer population was so depressed that there was no open season for several years.
Once the method was pronounced illegal it became culturally unacceptable in those regions, even tho it just might NOT have any negative effect on game populations!!

From what I know the use of dogs is still a legitimate method in Ontario and in the coastal U.S. South....I know it's legal in Florida north thru Eastern Va.....

And by the way, if you think it's easy then you "just ain't done it".........without doubt it is the most difficult way to take a good buck you'll ever experience........and yeah, I can state that with some authority having hunted in the Appalachians where I was born and also from experience in Alaska where I lived for three years...........

One big issue underlying this sort of discussion is the apparent attitude of "we don't do it that way", therefore its
somehow unethical or "wrong"............and that only serves to divide us as a group that has very similar interests, that IS wrong..........

By the way, deer driven by dogs move just as quickly as those dogs push them. I have seen deer stop to browse while a pack was trying to unravel its trail just a few hundred yards away........now, put a pack of hot running walkers on him and they are gonna' push the devil out of him, but he'll stop, let the dogs run by and go back the way he came.......another trick is to find a wad of does and yearlings and run into them.........90% of the time those dogs split and the whole affair goes to hell in a handbasket............it AIN'T easy!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The major issue in using dogs, either for bear or deer, is NOT a matter of game 'depredation, rather it's an issue of landowner conflict. Truly some areas are entirely too small to permit such methods without a lot of controversy and in fact, in some areas the very terrain might prove it to be relatively ineffective.

Absolutely -- and that's not limited to hunting dogs, either. Too many dog owners think they have no responsibility for their dogs, saying, "Well, the dog doesn't know where the property lines are."

But the owner does. And the owner is responsible for the dog. So contact landowners. Make friends with surrounding landowners -- bring a bottle of burbon or whatever, and get permission before you turn a dog loose.

 

[countertop]

Up until the 60s hunting deer with horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles was allowed in much of the country until companies selling deer products were wiping out herds.

So are you criticizing the use of semi autos as being unethical now along with baiting??

Please tell me, what states don't allow semi autos? Cause everywhere I hunt outside the Northeast has no problem with semi autos (if they allow center fire rifles - Iowa, for instance, doesn't generally allow center fire rifles but you can use a semi auto in the small part of the state where center fire's are allowed)

Where do you live???

And as others have pointed out, market hunting isn't what impacted deer herds. Of course, for that matter - there hasn't been any market hunting for deer in well over 70 years since all meat sold for consumption needs to be slaughtered in a USDA inspected facility (and the 40 acres out back most definitely is not).

 

[countertop]

And by the way, if you think it's easy then you "just ain't done it".........without doubt it is the most difficult way to take a good buck you'll ever experience........and yeah, I can state that with some authority having hunted in the Appalachians where I was born and also from experience in Alaska where I lived for three years...........

Great article on running bear with dogs in this months American Hunter magazine (or whatever the NRA Hunting Mag is). Yes, it made it clear there ain't nothing easy about it. Got a good adrenaline rush reading it.

 

[stevelyn]

There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit,

Where are you getting this idea? Sport hunters use the meat just the same as anyone else. What do you mean hunt for profit? Profitting from wildlife or wildlife parts is prohibited.

 

[SHvar]

I live in PA.
By profiting I mean what the law here and some other states says, in other words if you sell or trade any parts, products, there of the native wildlife, its illegal, its profitting from native wildlife.
Even if the law said business cannot sell products from native wildlife, individual people were doing so, thats a profit motive. They made it illegal to stop the individuals who were making money from selling meat, hides, etc.
Im not against semiautos being used, Im not sure where anyone read that into what I wrote. Someone is really reaching for excuses to argue on that one. Heck if you wanted to hunt wild boar with a semiauto and shot them by the herd then by all means go ahead, they arent native wildlife.

"There is a difference between someone who hunts for sport or profit, and those who are feeding themselves or their family with whats killed."

Exactly what I meant, there is a big difference between someone who is hunting to feed their family, and someone who is either hunting for some form of profit or another, or an individual who is hunting for sport (ie, a hobby).

Before anyone thinks that Im against sport hunting, NO IM NOT. But if you are sport hunting then do so in a sporting manner. Too many people post before actually reading what was posted.
And yes during the 60s professional hunters were using horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles to hunt herds of deer wiping them out to make a profit. This is why some states made these things illegal for hunting.
There is a big difference between the guy who has to hunt to feed himself and his family (as I mentioned Inuit hunters, and other subsistance hunters), and the guy who has a hobby of deer hunting once a year and eats the meat from the hunt.
If the use of dogs in hunting is not so easy, then why do so many subsistance hunters use dogs to hunt?
Come on now, humans domesticated dogs far before any other animal simply because they have such superior hunting skills, speed, strength, tracking ability, and they are so much like us by living and working together in family groups. If it wasnt for dogs helping us hunting we would have been stuck along the coastal areas of the world fishing for thousands of more years.
In some places property borders may have effected these laws, but not most.

 

[dogrunner]

SHvar:

FYI, don't know where you might be referring to re: the dog/horse/semi issue, but the Lacy act , passed in about the first decade of the 20th Century essentially outlawed commercial interstate transport of illicit game........in fact it actually effected the end of market hunting as it had been practiced for hundreds of years in this Country.

Far as ease of hunting goes, all three of the methods you describe are still in use here in Florida and truth be told there is no effect on the game population whatever if done properly. Point of fact, our State wildlife code generally permits the take of two deer per day with no season limit.........our general gun season runs about three months. The take of antlerless deer is generally limited to two days around Thanksgiving............other regulations do apply on management areas and special either sex permits can be acquired on leased or private lands.

Of course no law will stop the outlaw......by definition those sorts will do what they wish regardless of any prohibition.

None of the methods you deplore are any less sporting than sitting in a tree stand over a corn field or bait dispenser, or for that matter engaging in a man deer drive such as is done in Penna. or sitting over a garbage pile waiting for that bear!

I use an autoloading BAR and substitute a small pickup for the horse.............which'l carry a LOT more dog power than that horse would! The object being to first to find that deer, get him (usually her) up (jumped) and hopefully be able to head the animal off and get a shot..........90% of the time it turns out to NOT be something you can shoot, but that's the challenge.

Truth is tho, that style of hunting requires several thousand acres to be enjoyed properly and safely and of course it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Remember, just because the shoe doesn't fit you doesn't mean I might not like it!

 

[SHvar]

"Lacy act , passed in about the first decade of the 20th Century essentially outlawed commercial interstate transport of illicit game"

It didnt outlaw sales inside state borders, and it doesnt outlaw the sales of native wildlife inside the country between states.
I know this well from being a long time reptile hobbyist, state laws are the only thing preventing sales of native wildlife, or parts/products there of.
Aside from the sate laws the CITES laws are currently the only regulations to prevent native wildlife from leaving its home areas, and to control the numbers legally that do move around for sales, trading.
If the lacey act effected these things or prevented sales we would have not had any fur industry since the law came out period.

Again, where did I say anything against hunting with semiautos? Nowhere, read before you respond.

Depending on the dogs, and how they are trained Im sure it could be a bit difficult, but there are plenty of dogs that will simply exhaust the deer, or take down a deer on their own, how sporting for the hunter can that be?
I have no doubts that either of my 2, or both together would hunt deer without me, given the chance to do so.
I know coon hunters who have trouble with a few dogs that would rather chase deer than coons, some that did have trouble, not any more.
In PA baiting is illegal, in fact you can lose your car/truck, gun, knife, and every piece of equipment you have with you for hunting illegally as evidence then to be auctioned off later once your found guilty.
I know about man drives, and those who hunt overlooking cornfields, but drives definitely produce more results. Setting up a tree stand in a well traveled area (well traveled deer trails) seems to be more consistant.
The deer here know when hunting season starts and ends, they avoid fields until night time, and spend time near houses, and roads instead.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Where are you getting this idea? Sport hunters use the meat just the same as anyone else. What do you mean hunt for profit? Profitting from wildlife or wildlife parts is prohibited.

The proper term is "Market Hunting." Market hunters include the old buffalo hunters, who almost wiped out the buffalo and duck hunters who used punt guns -- basically small cannons stuffed with shot and fired into the midst of rafts of ducks at night.

 

[FlyinBryan]

How do these bad boys taste?

they just take small bites and slowly chew, with deliberate delayed swallowing.


ive never hunted bear, but i am not against shooting one if its attacking me or in the act of committing a class c misdemeanor or greater.

 

[dogrunner]

SHvar.............the Lacy act DOES prohibit the INTERSTATE sale of ILLEGALLY taken wildlife! .........Read it.

Cites is a far, far more recent bit of legislation with essentially the same object but in far more specific terms. I believe 'cites' is an acronym for 'convention on INTERNATIONAL trade in endangered species' the Lacy act is a United States law......correct me if I'm wrong.......I do know that such a tag is a requirement when 'gator hunting is done in Fla..both are designed to prevent illegal trade in wildlife.

Y'know, I wouldn't presume to tell a N. Dakota pheasant hunter what is and isn't hard, cause I've never hunted there or taken that kind of game, never shot an elephant on a safari and consequently can't find any rational way to criticise the way it's done! Have hunted deer, here and in the mountians, and shot more than my share of caribou and a couple of bears, so I do have some perspective on the hows and whys of certain methods, depending on the region......Sometimes its well to reflect on the old saying of 'when in Rome'.....................!

Sorry, I just have a problem with folks that think there is somehow something essentially unsporting about a regionally traditional and time honored method that have never done it.

Kinda brings to mind the bias against the Alaskan that uses aircraft to shoot wolves.............wherein there IS no other reasonably effective method of control!

Far as dogs catching a deer goes, I'd submit that it is nearly impossible for a healthy deer to be brought down by a dog pack.....true, they'll take a sick or juvenile one.......but I have NEVER seen or known of a deer to be caught that wasn't wounded.........and that's not with a slow movin' coon hound, rather with July's and Walkers, breeds that will 'smoke' Black and Tans or similar breeds.

Regardless, I can't convince you, but if you are ever down this way in Nov. or Dec. I'd be glad to SHOW you...........you might learn something and leave with a bit more respect.

 

[TedP]

What states allow baiting bears for hunting them?

Alaska, Arkansas, Idaho, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Utah, Wisconsin and Wyoming allow hunting for bear over bait in one way or another.

 

[dogrunner]

SHvar.............the Lacy act DOES prohibit the INTERSTATE sale of ILLEGALLY taken wildlife! .........Read it.

Cites is a far, far more recent bit of legislation with essentially the same object but in far more specific terms. I believe 'cites' is an acronym for 'convention on INTERNATIONAL trade in endangered species' the Lacy act is a United States law......correct me if I'm wrong.......I do know that such a tag is a requirement when 'gator hunting is done in Fla..both are designed to prevent illegal trade in wildlife.

Y'know, I wouldn't presume to tell a N. Dakota pheasant hunter what is and isn't hard, cause I've never hunted there or taken that kind of game, never shot an elephant on a safari and consequently can't find any rational way to criticise the way it's done! Have hunted deer, here and in the mountians, and shot more than my share of caribou and a couple of bears, so I do have some perspective on the hows and whys of certain methods, depending on the region......Sometimes its well to reflect on the old saying of 'when in Rome'.....................!

Sorry, I just have a problem with folks that think there is somehow something essentially unsporting about a regionally traditional and time honored method that have never done it.

Kinda brings to mind the bias against the Alaskan that uses aircraft to shoot wolves.............wherein there IS no other reasonably effective method of control!

Far as dogs catching a deer goes, I'd submit that it is nearly impossible for a healthy deer to be brought down by a dog pack.....true, they'll take a sick or juvenile one.......but I have NEVER seen or known of a deer to be caught that wasn't wounded.........and that's not with a slow movin' coon hound, rather with July's and Walkers, breeds that will 'smoke' Black and Tans or similar breeds.

Regardless, I can't convince you, but if you are ever down this way in Nov. or Dec. I'd be glad to SHOW you...........you might learn something and leave with a bit more understanding.

 

[Art Eatman]

"And yes during the 60s professional hunters were using horses, dogs, and semiauto rifles to hunt herds of deer wiping them out to make a profit."

I'd have to see some definitive proof for that. The two-bucks-only, no-does law was in effect in Texas before I was born--and I was born in 1934.

The pro hunter deal was never written about in the "Big Three" outdoor magazines of the late 1940s and 1950s--which I devoured with great regularity, nor in other periodicals with articles about outdoor doings. And no comments about that sort of thing from such as Keith or Ruark, et al.

 

[SHvar]

Really you think that a dog cant take down a healthy deer, Ive known many that have, and have seen it happen.
Im not talking about injured, or small deer, does, Im talking a big buck.
Ive personally seen 2 Siberian Huskies kill healthy deer which they ran down and attcked until the deer was dead.
I know of 2 dalmations who have killed a few deer, one suprised his owner by taking one in plain view right in front of him once.
Ive seen German shepard mixes take down deer, and a lab that killed a few.
Ive known of many larger dogs that have sucessfully taken live healthy bucks by themselves.
The only example I know of that was an unhealthy deer, was a pitbull that could not catch one if he tried, but he killed one.
Heck the most damgerous animal in captivity humans keep are horses, Ive known several dogs that attacked and killed horses in open fields, healthy younger adult horses.
Never underestimate a dog that still has some of what nature gave the breed for survival.
By the way, wolves in Alaska, why do they need controlled, no real reason that is supported by science has ever been shown. In fact they make the population of their prey healthier, stronger, reproduce faster, and less diseases. The real reason is they make the herds move, they keep them healthy and make them harder for humans to hunt.
It has more to do with ancient lies about them and biblical stories than truth to why people dislike wolves.
Simple fact is that wolves are natures most talented hunting machine, they are so difficult to hunt, to trap, and to get close enough to do either where they are hunted that losers in aircraft run them until exhausted then shoot them at point blank range.
Also the federal law says that you cannot take a motorized vehicle into many areas they inhabit, so Alaskans fly over Federal land in aircraft instead of taking horses or going on foot for many days to seek them out because its easier.
I dont believe the lies about aerial hunting of wolverines, bear, wolves, etc. You can only spread the crap on so thick before you slip in it and fall.
At least in Canada they hunt them with bait, in heated blinds, not from airplanes.
You see the law prohibits the use of snowmobiles to chase them now, and other motorized vehicles, so lazy people use aircraft instead.