Questions for the cops here.

[C-grunt]

I am in the proccess of becoming a police officer for Phoenix (hopefully I'll make it). During this proccess I have heard a few things and I would like to find out if they are true.

1. Are you allowed to carry concealed without a permit?
2. Are you supposede to carry off duty all the time?
3. Can you carry off duty in places were you normally cant....ie..schools and banks?

 

[1911HeadBanger]

I'm not sure about Arizona.....

... but in many locations, like here in Louisiana, most LEO's carry off-duty. Some departments make it mandatory, some encourage it, some say it's your option. No permit needed here if you have your badge and commission card. You can carry into those areas you asked about, except airport boarding areas, and bars if you are drinking. Some courtrooms have specified no carry except for balifs, but not all. The Departments here usually specify that you qualify on the firing range with any off-duty and back-up guns. Now with the nation wide concealed carry law for LEO's, you can carry just about anywhere. I hope they do this Nation wide for CCW permit holders also. Good Luck!

 

[Jim K]

Police officers within their jurisdiction do not need a permit to carry a gun. The method or conditions of carry are set forth in the department regulations.

Usually, officers are required to carry their duty firearm or a compatible (in ammo) firearm at all times, on or off duty. Again, that is in the department regulations, but the point is that a sworn officer is never really off duty; he is required to respond to a crime in progress no matter where he is.

Police officers are not bound by restrictions on carry that have been established for individual concealed carry license holders.

Carry outside the jurisdiction is trickier, and depends on state law. Most states will allow an officer to carry anywhere within the state, but some have restrictions. Outside your state, it gets iffy. Most police will honor a badge and give the bearer a pass on carry, but some states will not do so for off duty police.

The worst case may be New York City, where NO outside police officer (even NY state police) may carry a gun, on or off duty, for any reason. Even police picking up prisoners for transport to other jurisdictions must be met by an NYC officer, who will take custody of the "foreign" officer's gun, to be returned only when he leaves with the prisoner.

Just sort of FWIW, I detect that you have not gone far in your effort to have a police career and you seem to be going in that direction only so you can carry a gun. If so, forget it. Police work is hard, and discipline is rigid, particularly for a rookie. The picture of the movie cop, with thrilling car chases and hourly gun battles, is nonsense. And it will be a long time before you do the CSI bit. That is not you bending over the body; that is you directing traffic and trying to not look too much like the newbie you are.

That is not you asking probing questions and arresting murderers; that is you wrestling drunks and cleaning up the vomit in the back of the patrol car. Taking a ration from the "honest citizens" is bad when you can't do anything about it. I might slug some SOB who calls me names; you can't. And you also have to take a ration from your sergeant, and everyone who is above you, which, while you are a rookie, is everyone in the department.

Be prepared for tough physical training, lots of boring classes in law, police procedures, interaction with the community, race relations, first aid (yes, delivering a baby is included), and sometimes a foreign language. Shooting is a very minor part of your training and of the knowledge you have to have to be a good cop. Lots of luck.

Jim

 

[Black92LX]

1. Yes (your Police ID is your national CCW card) Thanks to H.R. 218
http://www.leaa.org/218/
2. Depends on the department. Ours is not mandatory unless driving a cruiser.
3. Yes again thanks to H.R 218

Carry outside the jurisdiction is trickier, and depends on state law. Most states will allow an officer to carry anywhere within the state, but some have restrictions. Outside your state, it gets iffy. Most police will honor a badge and give the bearer a pass on carry, but some states will not do so for off duty police.

The worst case may be New York City, where NO outside police officer may carry a gun, on or off duty, for any reason. Even police picking up prisoners for transport to other jurisdictions must be met by an NYC officer, who will take custody of the "foreign" officer's gun, to be returned only when he leaves with the prisoner.

This is not true. Federal Law trumps state law. H.R 218 allows for sworn LEO's even retired to carry nationally no matter the states regulations

H.2. 218
SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

 

[Jim K]

I forgot about that law, but it is limited in its effect. Many departments have explicitly prohibited their police from carrying weapons outside the jurisdiction or the state. And very few have initiated the process for certifying retired police officers under the law. (I seem to recall that NYC has stated that they will NOT obey the federal law and will arrest any outside officer they find carrying a gun, letting the courts settle the issue.)

The reason few departments want their officers carrying outside the jurisdiction is that they are afraid of lawsuits if one of their officers (or a retiree) uses his weapon in another jurisdiction. City insurers usually will cover the actions of police officers only when within the city/state of jurisdiction.

So a cop outside his area may have the legal right to carry a gun under HR 218, but if he uses his gun and is sued, he will probably be on his own. Unless one of its officers deputized him, the other jurisdiction surely won't pick up the tab, and his own probably won't either. So he is no better protected against a civil suit than anyone else carrying a gun, with or without a CCW permit.

Jim

 

[sacp81170a]

1. Are you allowed to carry concealed without a permit?

In Arkansas, yes.

2. Are you supposede to carry off duty all the time?

Depends on your department's policy, but in most cases, yes.

3. Can you carry off duty in places were you normally cant....ie..schools and banks?

In Arkansas, yes.

 

[Black92LX]

I forgot about that law, but it is limited in its effect. Many departments have explicitly prohibited their police from carrying weapons outside the jurisdiction or the state. And very few have initiated the process for certifying retired police officers under the law. (I seem to recall that NYC has stated that they will NOT obey the federal law and will arrest any outside officer they find carrying a gun, letting the courts settle the issue.)

Do you have any specific departments?? Becuase quite honestly that is one of the most ludicris things I have ever heard.

1. A department going against Federal Statute well that is just assainine in and of itself that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
2. That shows that a department has absolutly ZERO faith in the training that they gave their officer.

As for NY I will carry ANY and EVERY time I am there and if I am arressted for carrying well I just became an instant millionaire!

But to break it down a lower level it's always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[C-grunt]

Well Mr. Jim Keenan, I think your post is kind of attacking me personally and I dont appreciate that. You have no idea who I am as a person. If I wanted to just carry a gun, I would have stayed in the Army were I was my platoons designated marksman, back up Bradley gunner, and my companies top gun on the M240B and M2. I know what its like to be a rookie, I was a private E2 for a while. I have a couple friends who are police officers and have gone on ride-alongs. During these ride alongs, the most exciting thing that happened was writing a speeding tickect and I still want to do it. My stepdads best friend is a training officer who rides with rookies all the time, and he says I would make a great officer.

I am used to tough physical training. My first tour in Iraq (the invasion) I swear I must have cleared half of that country, walking up and down countless stairs with close to 90 pounds of gear. Also, being one of the only Pvts in the platoon, I was the lucky individual who got to crawl in and out of all the small dirty bunkers looking for weapons.

 

[Jim K]

It sounds like you think that law forces departments to certify retirees and to allow its officers to carry anywhere. The law doesn't say that and doesn't do that.

As to NYC (or any other jurisdiction), they can do just what they say. It is like the FOPA. Federal law or not, drivers in NY and NJ have been arrested and held for violations of state/local gun laws. AFAIK, all were released without being brought to trial, but the rules are tricky and the police are looking for an excuse to make arrests. Like any street cop, they will say they are enforcing state or local law and leave questions about federal law to the "suits". Meanwhile, the traveler stays behind bars.

As for your "judged by 12" remark, that is a nice sounding piece of nonsense, straight out of the old west. Regardless of your comment about your department, you don't sound like you are a sworn police officer. You sound like a kid out to prove some kind of point with a gun and looking for trouble. If you have ever been in jail, or even around jails, you wouldn't be so eager to tweak the cops and try to get yourself put behind bars.

As to getting millions, try buying a lottery ticket. As to federal law trumping local law, maybe. But do you really expect that if the NYC cops arrest you, the FBI or somebody will come riding to the rescue? Not going to happen. I suggest speaking with a competent attorney if you plan to thumb your nose at the NYC cops. You might get an awakening as to the way things work and just how many millions it could cost you to fight the case. You can check with your chief to see if your department will pick up the tab.

Go back to dreaming about the Old West, where the sheriff patted the good guy on the back for gunning down the bad guy. The real world is a lot messier.

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Hi, C-grunt,

I apologize and thank you for your service. I did make a misjudgement based on the idea that your main interest in police work was getting to carry a gun, since that seemed to be the thrust of your questions. I think your stepfather's friend can answer your questions as they pertain to that department better than I can, since my responses were general. Maybe he can get you a copy of department regulations, although they are usually restricted.

Unfortunately, quite a few folks do want to become police officers for that reason, with no idea of what a police career is really like. I am sure you have encountered some guys who want to join the armed forces so they can do a lot of shooting; they don't think about that 90 pounds of gear or the real dangers they can face (or the heat and sand).

I put some of this down to video games, where the hero shoots people by the dozen and if he is "killed" it can all be taken care of with a reset button. Life just isn't that way.

Jim

 

[dragongoddess]

"1. Are you allowed to carry concealed without a permit?
2. Are you supposede to carry off duty all the time?
3. Can you carry off duty in places were you normally cant....ie..schools and banks?"


The above questions are not what I would expect of someone wanting to be a police officer. The questions leads me to believe you are doing this to carry a weapon. The questions also raise a great concern in me as to your fitness to be an officer.

As to questions I would consider normal.

Pay
Retirement
Probation period
what kind of work schedules can I expect
what kind of holiday schedules can I expect
Is there for other training which I may be eligible for
What kind of uniform allowance can I expect and how much
insurance for myself and family
advancement
will I work by myself or will I be working with someone else
can I work as security during my off duty time
Are their restrictions on off duty jobs


Your questions on the other hand set off alarm bells.

 

[Steve in PA]

"The worst case may be New York City, where NO outside police officer (even NY state police) may carry a gun, on or off duty, for any reason. Even police picking up prisoners for transport to other jurisdictions must be met by an NYC officer, who will take custody of the "foreign" officer's gun, to be returned only when he leaves with the prisoner. "

LOL, just where did this knowledge come from? 100% wrong thats for sure.

 

[Stand_Watie]

As to NYC (or any other jurisdiction), they can do just what they say. It is like the FOPA. Federal law or not, drivers in NY and NJ have been arrested and held for violations of state/local gun laws. AFAIK, all were released without being brought to trial, but the rules are tricky and the police are looking for an excuse to make arrests. Like any street cop, they will say they are enforcing state or local law and leave questions about federal law to the "suits". Meanwhile, the traveler stays behind bars.

Well, in a sense that is true. As well as the fact that the NYPD may post signs that say "N***** don't let the sun set on your ass". That they may prevent registered voters from voting. That they may sodomize suspects in the police restroom with broomhandles (that one actually happened). That they may murder judges. Anything is possible of course.

Meanwhile, whether or not it's possible, it's not legal. Once the city of NY starts bleeding seriously from the multi-million dollar lawsuits, and a few of New York's finest wind up in the penitentiary being sodomized themselves things will start to change.

As far as I'm concerned, if I'm on the jury that decides a police officer's liability in a lawsuit regarding federal law, I'll have no sympathy whatsoever for an a**hole who claims to "leave questions about federal law to the "suits"." Hey guess what moron, this is America. You're subject to federal law, just like you're subject to state and local law.

State "good faith immunity" exemptions are null in a federal civil rights lawsuit as well.

 

[XD Fan]

Let's give him the benifit of the doubt.

I have no idea regarding C-Grunt's motives for choosing a career in law enforcement, and I agree that there might be numerous more important questions to ask about this career feild than the ones he asked. However, it is entirely likely that he is seeking answers to those other questions through other resources that are really appropriate to those questions. Since this is a firearms forum, it seems a very appropriate place to ask about the firearms end of police work. These are questions that seem logical given the nature of this forum, and they certainly are questions that would seem normal to come up in the mind of a firearms enthusiast (even if they are not his first and most important ones). Let's give him the benifit of the doubt.

C-Grunt,

Thanks for serving our nation in the military. You soldiers are heroes!

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Jim Keenan- Can you cite your sources on your posts re out of town cops in NYC?
I spent 20 years as a cop there, travelled out of state on multiple occasions, had outside agencies inside NYC working on multiple occasions, and never saw anything in the PG, no memo's, no "guidance", no nothing relative to that.
NY cops work armed in NJ, NJ cops work armed in NY, IN cops, WY cops, whatever.
Re NYSP, their geographical area of employment is the State of NY- the entire state.
Re 218- you are repeating an errornet myth.
If you have documentation, i'd love to see it. I've been retired for a while, so anything may be possible. However, as about 95% of what goes on during travels down the disinformation cowpath are false, myths, or fantasies, i am disinclined to believe such things without documentation.

 

[loumarch]

As a former LEO I can state for a fact that active duty LEO's can and do carry in NYC.

Whenever we had to pick up a prisoner in NYC we just informed whatever precinct we were going to be in that we were there and everything was OK.

We did this as a courtesy, not because of their local laws. It was never an issue.

I have also carried off-duty in NYC. I was "made" once and the responding officer didn't seem to care after seeing my ID. This doesn't mean that all NYC officers would have the same reaction, I would tread carefully when not on "home turf".

 

[Tearlachblair]

The above questions are not what I would expect of someone wanting to be a police officer. The questions leads me to believe you are doing this to carry a weapon. The questions also raise a great concern in me as to your fitness to be an officer.

I'm sorry, dragongoddess, but I believe the maker of this thread was asking is asking for an answer to his questions, not for whether you think he is fit to be an officer, as this is an evaluation you are completely unqualified to make as you do not even know him.

As to questions I would consider normal.

Nor do I think he is sitting in his chair shaking in trepidation for fear that his questions may not have merited your own personal rating of "normal".

Who are you to say what is normal?

No offense intended to anyone, but seriously, when a man asks a question, one should answer it, not sit around speculating and trying out some juvenile form of psychoanalysis as to where he may be going in his future life.

 

[Black92LX]

Mr Keenan have you ever even read H.R. 218?? It is the individuals responsibility (when dealing with retirees) to get the qualification. Most departments I know of would have no problem with their retirees coming down to the range when quartly quals come around so that they can meet these requirements. It is of almost zero cost to the department at that point and most of the individuals looking to get recertified would have no problem paying the minimal costs that it would take.

But that's not even the point here.

As for you not believing that I am a sworn LEO your assumputions are way off base and you have already proved that once with your condescending comments towards the original poster of this thread. that is fine by me this is the internet and I could careless whether you believe me or not. There are quite a few people on this board who have met me and know who I am good freinds with. Though I still have no need to justify who I am to you.

As standing up for my rights I will do it to the bitter end no matter what one feels they need to put me through. Too many people just roll over when their rights are infringed and that's one of the huge problems with our country today.
False arrest is a big deal and has costs lots of departments lots of money.
Does this mean I will advertise that I am carrying whenver I visit NY or NJ which I do quite often. No but if it comes to blows I will do whatever it takes in the name of the freedoms we have been granted.


as for his questions i don't really see them being out of line when they are being asked on a GUN forum. He may have had the other questions that dragongoddess cited but felt that he would only ask the gun related questions on a gun forum. Seems logical to me.

 

[BsChoy]

I am a LEO in NY and I have carried everywhere....Hospital, airport, and ON A PLANE...thanks to LEOSA as long as the airline permits it and you have the ID you can carry on a plane as well...IT IS AWESOME!

 

[Stand_Watie]

as for his questions i don't really see them being out of line when they are being asked on a GUN forum.

That was exactly my thought when I first read dragongodess reply. I was a cop "wannabee" for several years, and those were exactly my questions that I'd have asked on a gun forum at the time (if I'd known what the internet was). I'd have asked other questions on other topic forums.

If state law typically gave you the right (I'm being ridiculous for the point) to use the '10 items only' lane at the grocery store when shopping with a 100+ item cart, I'd have asked that question on the 'grocery shopping' forum.

 

[usmcski]

1. Are you allowed to carry concealed without a permit?
Here in NC -yes

2. Are you supposede to carry off duty all the time?
Here in NC-Not required to but can if I want

3. Can you carry off duty in places were you normally cant....ie..schools and banks?
Here in NC-Yes..the only place I cant carry would be federal court houses and jails

 

[isp2605]

Jim Keenan is repeating erroneous internet rumors. I've carried off duty and done business with NYPD several times, all pre-HR218. I've never been treated better by any other agency. They've always been extremely helpful and hospitable.
RE JK's comment "As to federal law trumping local law, maybe" Ain't no 'maybe' about it. Anyone who passed high school civics knows the answer to that. And I can assure you NYPD coppers and their dept attorneys, and every other agency, are aware of it too. Fed law does trump local law, no 'maybe' about it.
JK also wrote " (I seem to recall that NYC has stated that they will NOT obey the federal law and will arrest any outside officer they find carrying a gun, letting the courts settle the issue.)" That is in no way what NYPD said. What NYPD and other agencies have said is if they come across an out of town cop carrying a firearm then check the person out to make sure they are actually a cop. Just don't take their word for it. Gee, like that's new news. Cops have been doing that for many long years prior to HR218. Just because somebody flashes a badge doesn't mean they're a cop. Check them out. That's all NYPD, a lot of other agencies, have said. But the tin foil hat types have gone off the deep end and twisted that around to saying NYPD said arrest all cops. Not so, a complete falsehood, untrue.

To answer c-grunt's questions:
1) As others have said, since the passage of HR218 over 2 yrs ago, now called LEOSA, LEOs don't need a permit to carry off duty. With LEOSA, LEOs are permitted to carry in any state, territory, Washington DC. There are some limitations such as flying while armed and some federal buildings but LEOSA gives active and retired LEOs pretty wide authority to carry
Agencies can set dept policy to limit where you can carry their firearms, ie, prohibiting carrying outside your jurisdiction, state, etc. However, violating that policy is only a dept policy violation and not a violation of the law. In other words, you could be fired for violating dept policy but you could not be charged criminally.
2) Whether required to carry off duty or not is a dept policy issue. Fewer and fewer agencies are mandating off duty carry but instead go with wording such as "strongly encourage off duty carry". Doesn't seem like much difference until you look at labor law. Some agencies have been sued by their cops for mandatory carry. They have claimed, and won, that when an agency mandates what they do off duty then the officer should be compensated because they're really not off duty. Courts have upheld that argument and forced agencies either to revise their policy or pay off duty/standby pay.
3) LEOSA does not limit the number of places that many CCW permits limit. Do a websearch of LEOSA or HR218 and read the statute. The limitations are spelled out in the statute.

 

[va_1168]

Good luck C-grunt!

Another one here who thinks your questions were entirely appropriate up front. For questions re LEO salary, benefits, etc., I think most of us know there are other sources perhaps better than THR for that.

Glad you brought your gun-related questions here though. And thanks for your service...

 

[RustyShackelford]

Officer.com/Lawenforcementjobs.com/CopsNWriters.com

Check these useful websites for more details about police/LEO CC laws/rules. Copsnwriters.com is run by a retired LEO from AZ. He could answer your police questions about Arizona.



For the most part, if you do become a sworn LEO keep these issues in mind;

Carry a full size/powerful sidearm off duty. Always have at least 1 reload and your handcuffs with you too.

Consider a high quality small frame weapon as a back up. To use a smaller pistol that can use the same full size magazines as your main sidearm is a good idea. For example; HK P-2000 and HK P-2000sk OR get a Glock 32C with a 33 .357SIG as a back-up/second gun.

Keep your weapons and equipment clean. Also use good concealent holsters and buy well known belts/mag holders etc. Cheap stuff will break or fall apart and you would not want that in an off duty incident.

Rusty

 

[stevelyn]

Yes.
Optional or dependent on dept policy.
Yes.

Of course this is Alaska. There are few restrictions on carry for anyone.