questions on an accidental discovery - double firing?

[rogdigity]

i bought a mini 14 and the rifle didnt cycle right. it would shoot a round, chamber the new round, but never reset the firing pin for the second round. i then had to manually pull the bolt back, which ejected the second (unfired) round and loaded the next (third) round. i could then pull the trigger and it would function again same as before...fire one round, chamber a fresh round, and not fire when i pulled the trigger again...

i dont know much about gunsmithing but i looked at a friends trigger group and compared and found that mine has been altered. There is two little catches on the hammer, one (under the hammer) to hold the hammer in firing position, and the second (top of the hammer) to stop the hammer after the recoil while the trigger is held back. apparently when you let the trigger go back forward the first notch on top catches again before the hammer can fall again...magic if you ask me... anyways, the one on top of the hammer was ground flat.

after playing with the working trigger group i figured out how the hammer worked and decided to grind a notch back into the top of it. i tested the notch and it does catch. i noticed that the piece with the two catches is now narrower and when you pull the trigger the second notch catches the top of the hammer ok and holds it down after the recoil, but when you let off the trigger the first catch now misses the notch on the bottom of the hammer and the hammer cycles as normal. it appears to me that it will fire the rifle when you LET OFF the trigger as well as when you pull the trigger...


by this point im baffled and do some research and find that they actually make 'rapid-fire', or 'hell-fire' sears that do this. is this leagal? i live in california so i imagine that its not. any input?



...i bet a picture would help huh... ill try and get one right now

 

[ants]

Illegal? Maybe.

Dangerous? Hell, yes.

Take it to a professional to get it fixed, my friend. The 'notch' thing is to be caught by the Disconnector, which prevents runaway full-auto. Thus, it is not only a safety piece but cannot be lawfully altered.

You sound like a good guy, and handy with tools. But this is not the right spot to make a mistake. If you don't want to have a pro fix it, at least buy new parts.

 

[rogdigity]

...friend is on his way now with his trigger group for comparison again and pictures

 

[rogdigity]

alright, this should be enough pictures. the silver assembly is mine. the first two pictures are with the tops of them together, the next one is trying to show the notch i made, the last is the trigger group while cocked

 

[Zoogster]

Replace the part. Do not fix it yourself even if capable of making a safe firearm.
Having that part modified could be used to make you look bad in a prosecution. Used as evidence that you were doing things you were not even doing.

It could have successfuly been full auto and had parts no longer present removed or replaced with the stock ones before it was sold.
It also could have had a lousy doubletap modification and is now missing a part.
Apperantly the ATF says it is okay to have it fire once on pulling the trigger and once when the trigger is released (but they always change thier opinions.)
That of course makes a dangerous firearm prone to ND.

 

[rogdigity]

well i think you hit the nail on that guess. id even guess that they did try to automate it and failed miserably, and thats how i got my cheap mini...

might it be wise to replace the whole trigger group then? god only knows what may have been done to it.

 

[Zoogster]

Probably no reason to replace it all. Compare it to your friends, and just replace anything different.

Also be careful of wear marks in certain locations that could indicate an additional but now missing part was in there enabling it to cycle in full auto.

The design as you notice is intended to not cycle if simply modified without the addition of other parts. The mechanism is intentionaly more complex than necessary so it requires the addition of other parts and is not "readily converted" into a "machinegun". Look for evidence of wear from such parts now missing. That is exactly what a federal agent would do.

If there is any extra tapped and drilled holes on the reciever then it could put you in bad legal shape.
If not you should be able to cheaply replace the affected parts.

Most likely it is no big deal. You probably had someone that didn't know what they were doing, tried to simply modify it, turning a very reliable firearm into one that cycles horribly, and then wanted to get rid of it quickly.
You on the other hand can now cheaply repair thier mistake, and probably got a great deal because of thier foolishness.

 

[MD_Willington]

There was a BATFE letter here at one time regarding this on a Mini-14

In said letter it was LEGAL to have the rifle fire on fulling squeezing the trigger, and then have the rifle fire when allowing the trigger to come forward...

Safe, probably not, but it was legal, as there were two distinct motions involved, action 1 = squeeze, action 2 = release.

 

[Zoogster]

There was a BATFE letter here at one time regarding this on a Mini-14

In said letter it was LEGAL to have the rifle fire on fulling squeezing the trigger, and then have the rifle fire when allowing the trigger to come forward...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=62411

 

[MD_Willington]

! Bingo !

 

[SHvar]

Save yourself the time, money, and aggrevation, go buy the parts you need to make it right, dont make the mistake of making it not work, making it unsafe, or illegal.

 

[X-Rap]

I would send the whole trigger group to Ruger and have them R&R as needed.
I had a Mini Ranch long ago that would spill more than one round at a time and at a hell for fast ROF. Took the whole gun back to the shop that sold it with the range results. They were more than happy to take it back.

 

[rogdigity]

wow, thanks for posting the letter.

after some more reasearch, careful measuring with a caliper, and functionality test; this trigger group WILL fire once on pulling and once on releasing. note that i never finished my notch i was making because after i did my first functionality test i found this issue. that is when i stopped and posted here to get opinions before proceeding. this is also apparent in the pictures as the work was obviously never finished. i didnt want to (and still dont) break any laws or ruin a perfectly good rifle. thanks for the input on this.

i believe this part must be factory fitted and is on an exchange basis only, or at least according to rugers site that is. i wonder if i can just send them the hammer only and buy the new one to fit myself. ...the price you pay for a cheap rifle...



i guess theres probably someone who is going to try to use those pictures to convert their own rifle. this will not make your rifle fire in full-auto. i did this work to simply fix something that had already been done to the rifle before i bought it and not in any attempt to convert my rifle. i dont recommend you do this at all. after all the research ive done i can see that within 200-300 rounds your trigger group will fail. i accidently found a way to make this gun that much more dangerous. dont do this.

 

[Max]

The part that is malfunctioning is called a (safety sear) and most commonly they are prone to breaking causing just what you described. Or it was filed down in the mistaken belief that it would produce full auto. you got it used huh?! You don't need to go to a so-called gun smith to hold your rifle for weeks and charge you a fortune to fix something you could have done your self for the cost of the part. It's an easy fix, just pop the trigger out and replace the sear and, put the trigger back in. It's that simple.

 

[JMI]

I agree with X-Rap...send the trigger group to Ruger. They'll make it safe and legal. I had some issues with the trigger on my mini a few years back. I sent it off to Ruger and got back a new trigger assembly in 2 weeks. It didnt cost all that much.

 

[rogdigity]

who said anything about sending the rifle to a gunsmith max? im perfectly capable of taking the trigger group out and sending it in myself. i cant imagine ruger would need the whole rifle to fix just the hammer...

i agree with you JMI and i am going to call ruger today and see what i need to send them and where to send it too.

thanks again for all the info guys

 

[ants]

Good plan, rogdigity. Let us know what they say. I once called Ruger about an issue with a 10/22 trigger, and they explained that they cannot receive and repair a trigger group all by itself. (Same story from S&W on a revolver issue.) They need the whole gun. It's a liability issue. I simply bought new parts (I took the opportunity to upgrade the 10/22 to Volquartzen trigger) and installed them in accordance with Volquartzen's instructions. Does someone make an aftermarket trigger group for your rifle? Maybe Timney, or Volquartzen, or Jewel, or Rifle Basix? The aftermarket triggers are fabulous.

 

[Jim K]

I would call Ruger. I think they may want the whole rifle so they can test fire it after they fix the trigger group and make sure there was nothing else done to it.

They might even pay the freight by sending you a UPS sticker.

Jim

 

[jackdanson]

Get it fixed, it's dangerous. It's not illegal though, there are videos on youtube on how to set it up to do this.