Questions on Lee 7.62x39 Dies

[tkcomer]

OK, starting to load for the 7.62x39 and have a few questions. First off, I'm using WB Winchester brass. Dies are from Lee and have both the .308 and .310 expanders. .308 seems to mic out at .307 while the .310 mics at .310. Brassed is trimmed with the Lee trimmer to 1.515. Bullets are 124gr FMJs from Golden West Brass. Bullets seem to mic at .3105 to 3.11. Now then, when using the the .310 expander, case neck tension is not enough. As soon as the seater die gets the base of the bullet into the mouth, the bullet will almost drop into the case. If I use the .308 expander, it's kinda tricky to get the bullet started. Getting better at it, but not sure if this is the way to go. Not sure if I want to "sand" the .310 expander down just yet. Does anyone else use the .308 expander to seat .311 bullets? And I've already wrecked a few cases with the .310 expander. For some reason, if you size a case, bring it out of the die and shove it back in, the brass will come out a second time with a ring right below the case shoulder. You can see it and feel it, but it drops into the case gage just fine. I still won't use those as I don't like the look of it. Any idea what that is? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

I hate to say it, but I sanded down my .310 expander. It was either use the .308 expander and crush a very expensive case (as I could not find brass cases very often, almost made me pray for a range that banned wolf but had a lot of AKs ) or a similar situation as yours (low neck tension).

Try your .308 expander. If it doesnt work, you are out one casing, at most. Then again, I used Hornady dies, so YMMV.

 

[tkcomer]

That's for sure. Cases are expensive. The .308 will shove then in there, but it doesn't feel that smooth. I've only tried it on 3 cases. What did you sand the .310 expander down to? .309? What grit did you use?

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm loading that same bullet with the same set of dies.

I'm using Win and Federal brass.

I too get minimal neck tension.

I believe the problem is the shape of the bullet and the "sad excuse" for a crimp groove.

The largest part of the bullet (near the base) measures .311" pretty consistantly on mine, but then starts to taper as you go up the bullet to the "dent". So the driving band area is pretty small.

I size the brass with the larger expander.

When I seat the bullets, they wont move on their own, but will move with minimal amount of force. So a good firm crimp is definately required.

The problems is...
1. the "crimp dent" only gets a good grip on the bullet and prevents set back if the rim is aligned right at the dent.
2. the bullet ogive is not consistant, so seating these consistantly is a crap shoot.

On the bright side, once you get them seated and crimped properly, they do shoot well.... they shoot better in my Saiga than the Hornady 123 gr. softpoints do. I think this is because the Hornady bullets are .310" and my Saiga slugs ~.312" at the muzzel.

Personally, I'm all done with this Golden West bullet and am sloooowly working up a cast bullet load for my "economy" paper punchers.
---
One other thought..... If you're loading Rem brass, they often have slightly thinner walls and may not "spring back" as much when expanded. If this is the case, you might want to try different brass before hacking up you expander ball.

If you do go that route, I wouldn't touch it with anything rougher than 400 grit emery cloth.

 

[tkcomer]

The base is what I measured. It did seem like there was a "drop off" after the crimp groove. That would explain why the bullet wouldn't really go in by hand, but would drop on in after the seater die got it past the case mouth. I use the factory crimp die, so I don't use the crimp groove on the bullet. I was trying for about 2.190" OAL. But with bullets falling into the case, that turned into a crapshoot. I've only loaded 18 rounds so far to test. Those didn't go well. Bad reloads with the wrong powder. 20.8grs of IMR 4227. 3" groups at 50 yards. I have 1000 rounds of Remington brass on backorder and will get better powder as soon as I know what primers they use. I'm just practicing on the few Winchester cases I have. But I hate screwing them up.

 

[rcmodel]

Your expander button needs to be .002" - .003" smaller then the bullets you are using.

Chuck it up in a drill and use some 320 emory paper to reduce the .310" expander to .309" and try it. If you still get a loose fit, go to .308".

rcmodel

 

[tkcomer]

I'm thinking SSN Vet has the problem figured out. The bullet tapers slightly after the base. Why the heck would anybody make a bullet like that? For that reason, I'll not mess with the .310 expander just yet. I may need that size when I try other bullets. If worse comes to worse, and in my case it always does, I have a lee universal expander. Use the .308 expander and then put a slight flair on the case mouth, then seat the bullet. An extra frustrating step, but it's what I use when I use flat based bullets in my 223 and 30-30 to keep from collapsing cases. Thanks for the help. Especially cluing me in on that darn taper on the bullet. Who would have thunk that?

 

[armoredman]

I use the Lee dies .310 expander, (actually resizing 7.62x39mm brass when I read this!), and use .310 Hornady 123 gr SP. I do have somewhat loose neck tension, but the factory crimp die takes that away. One load I have gave me a few .75 inch groups at 50 yards out of the vZ-58.

 

[tkcomer]

Actually, that's one of the reasons I don't want to sand the expander down just yet. I may try those bullets and I may need that larger expander. But I need good neck tension as I use an AR type upper.

 

[stoney1666]

I've only done a test run of 10, but I used 147 gr FMJBT.308 and they worked out of my AR with the .308 expander.

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm kinda bummed by my 7.62x39 loading experiences so far.

I get groups comprable to WWB and Federal factory loads with the Golden West bullets, but they are a pain to load, as I can only get a reliable crimp by seating the case mouth right at the "dent". If I don't seat at the dent, the bullet will easily set back.

The Hornady bullet is giving me lousy groups. My guess is that this is due to them being .310 and not .311.

I've even tried a 150 gr. .312 bullet intended for use in .303 Brit., but that's not grouping well either. Perhaps I should switch powders for the 150 gr. bullets. I'm using 1680 on everything else so far.

I'm having trouble getting my cast bullets that are checked and sized to .311 on paper at 50 yds.

I slugged my Saiga rifle with a 00 buck show pellet and got .312.

My next step is to get a .314 sizing die to seat my checks and shoot the 312-155 cast bullets essentially as cast, which is right at .312. Hopeuflly that will give me an economical (if not labor intensive) load that can give good results at 100 yds.

I'll have to check out some of the other manufacters for jacketed loads.

Any recommendations for a good jacketed bullet that measures a true .312 and won't break the bank?

I'm not ready to resign myself to shooting Wolf.

I'll say this for the Golden West bullet. They are economical. I paid $45 for 500 over a year ago. But I don't think I'll get more when these are gone.

 

[tkcomer]

Model 1 Sales says my barrel is a .310 bore. The Winchester ammo shot poorly out of it. I have old com block ammo that shot better. That’s why I may try the Hornady .310 FMJs if I can’t get these bullets to work. Of course, the IMR 4227 powder probably isn’t the best choice. I asked about it awhile back and most said they couldn’t get their semi guns to cycle with it. Mine cycles fine. Hoping groups will improve once I get this bullet seating figured out. Once I do that, I’ll play around with different powder charges. I’m not expecting stellar accuracy with these bullets. Hopefully, better than the com block ammo I have. But I’ve got to learn how to get them seated properly.

 

[Sunray]

What are you shooting it out of? American made rifles usually have a .308" barrel. European barrels are nominally .311".
"...kinda tricky to get the bullet started..." The cases chamfered and deburred on the case mouth? Mind you, if the case is being sized for .311" bullets, the expander notwithstanding, .308" bullets won't work.
"...a 150 gr. .312 bullet..." Too heavy and too long. The 7.62 x 39 was designed to use 125 grain bullets.

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm loading for a 16" Saiga.

It's bored for "commie caliber' 7.62.

Supposedly the Hornady .310 bullets are for 7.62x39. But I'm not getting good results with mine.

as for 150 gr. bullets. I certainly agree that 7.62 "Rusky" was developed with a 125ish gr. bullet in mind. But there sure are a LOT of folks out there who feed 150 gr. in their Kalashnikov action rifles who report good results. I'm just not one of them .... yet!

 

[armoredman]

Never used a 150gr, found the 123s work far too well to toss them out.

 

[tkcomer]

In my Sierra book, they use a Sako Vixen with a bore diameter of .312. Sierra claims their 110 and 125gr .308 bullets are capable of about one and a half inch groups at higher velocities. Sub MOA with their .311 150gr bullet. With my .310 bore, I'd hope to get at least consistent 3" groups with the GWB bullets. But it may be awhile before I test again. 12 hour swing shifts and cleaning the farm up for winter is cutting into play time.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

have you tryed any .310 slugs into the .308 expanded neck?
I load the X39 and the Lee FCD does help tighten groups. don't 'squeeze the guts' out of the slug, just a light barely visible crimp is what I've found works great.

 

[tkcomer]

Yep. 3 times. They went in, but it didn't "feel" right. Squeezing the guts out of 'em with the FCD is what I was doing when I used the .310 expander.

 

[SSN Vet]

if you're willing to fuss around seating the Golden West bullets right at the dent, you can get a secure crimp with the LFCD and not "squeeze the *$# out of them".

If seated just right, the case mouth will tuck under the dent when given a modest crimp and prevent any set back.

But as I noted, the ogive is inconsistant, so seating is fickle at best.

Once I have my seating die set up as best as I can get it. I short stroke the press, and then check the bullet position, I then bump it, check it, and repeat untill it's close enough to the dent.

I'd rather do this than get out the "whacker" every 5th bullet and tap it back out a smidge, trying not to completely eject the bullet.

 

[R.W.Dale]

An alternative would be to use an expander die to flare the case mouth slightly as you would seating cast bullets or loading for handgun rounds.

 

[steve4102]

In my Sierra book, they use a Sako Vixen with a bore diameter of .312. Sierra claims their 110 and 125gr .308 bullets are capable of about one and a half inch groups at higher velocities

What Sierra book do you have? I have #3 and #5 and the test rifle is a Mini-30 with .308 bore and tapered throat

 

[tkcomer]

Umm, it's the #2 book. Kinda old isn't it? It's got the basics. I then get the One Book/One Caliber books to supplant that.

 

[tkcomer]

Just to touch base, I used the .308 expander ball and got the bullets in with very little problem. They seem to hold tight. Gave them a light crimp with the FCD and now I can't shove them in. I did up the powder charge to 21.6grs. Much better. Kinda windy, but I was able to shoot solid 2" groups at 55 yards. Still not good, but better than the scatter groups I was shooting with the last try. I'll bump the powder up to 22grs the next time out. Just glad I finally got these bullets to seat well. Thanks for the help.

 

[SSN Vet]

thanks for the update....maybe I'll try the .308 expander out the next time I load thes up. Still have a couple hundred left.

 

[tkcomer]

I'll be glad when the RP brass comes in and I find out what primer they take. I plan to do a bulk order of other things I need. Gonna try Reloader-7 for this caliber. Maybe with that powder, the bullets will fly a little straighter. I'm just playing with the IMR 4227 because I'm bored and it's what I have on hand.