Quick & brief questions about 12ga shotguns; NYC resident .....

[RustyShackelford]

Hello,
Feel free to relocate this topic to SHOTGUNS or firearm accessories if required but the questions are legal issues:

1) In 06/2015 can a resident of New York City(NY) buy or possess a pistol grip 12ga pump action shotgun? Like a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500 Cruiser?
2) Would a New York City citizen or resident(home of record) need to register the 12ga pump shotgun or claim it with any sworn LE agency or get any special permits or licenses?
3) If the pistol grip pump action shotguns are legal in NYC can they include lasers, white lights, muzzle breaks/breachers/etc?

My new friend travels often by boat(small yacht). He resides in New York City but may travel by boat to NC, VA, FL, Cuba, USVI, etc. He's looking into a new pump action 12ga for security/defense on the boat & maybe while in port(where legal).
I've advised a Cruiser style 12ga with pistol grips for CQB/close quarters. One 500 comes with a slick ambi control strobe light & a recoil reducer. It's aggressive & intimidating too but not impractical for a yacht IMO.
I also noted a Mossberg JIC 12ga pump shotgun(with extended tube).
He's fired guns before and already knows he must learn the lethal force laws, carry standards, travel regulations, customs-immigration, etc for places outside CONUS.
$$$ isn't a major issue but I'm inclined that he start simple & safe then advance on to better guns later.
Note: he & I are also checking into less lethal systems but a C2 or X2 Taser is a no-go. Not in RI or New York City. The boat owner might get some OC spray or a white light(surefire, Fenix, Streamlight, etc) later too.

Thanks;
RS
PS: PM me if you want to be discreet.

 

[oneounceload]

He travels to Cuba? He needs to be careful in open water as well if he has guns onboard. If he is not a gun person a PGO shotgun is about the worst thing to try and have any success with

 

[Speedo66]

Shotguns are legal in NY, but he must obtain a permit to possess in the city. He also has to check current regs for capacity, and accessories.

Pistol grips not legal in NYS. If that's what he wants, nothing to prevent him from buying a shotgun and installing the pistol grip once he leaves NY waters.

Has to check what the regs are for states and countries who's waters he'll pass through.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Rhode Island....

Good to know... .
The yacht is moored/based in RI but he might leave it in Fort Lauderdale FL too. Do these pistol grip laws apply to RI too?
They seemed to be rather snobby & "I'll see you next Tuesday, ." in FL so he's not crazy about that. The boat guys & service industry seem to cater to the super wealthy & mega-yachts that only get use 1/2 weeks per year if at all.

Any word of who or how to get a New York City NY gun permit? For a pump shotgun?

Rusty

 

[rcmodel]

Forget the pistol grip shotgun.

All he can expect from it at the best is missing a lot and getting slapped up side the head with it.

If he thinks he needs a shotgun on a boat?

He needs a shotgun with a stock on it on a boat.

But, IMO, on a boat, he needs a .308 rifle to keep other boats with .223 rifles out of rifle range.

rc

 

[RustyShackelford]

New York City laws, Cuba, smaller calibers...

I checked the NYPD sections & the no pistol grips apply to the semi automatic shotguns not pump shotguns.
I'd think the Mossberg Cruisers recoil reducer/muzzle break would help with low recoil police loads(12ga). He could also get a 16/20/410 gauge then have less recoil, flip, problems.
A 12ga pump action with a stock could work okay I guess. I like the Magpul designs for the 870 or model 500.

RI's gun laws even for rifles & shotguns seem very strict, .
As for Cuba, he might sail down that way later this year or in 2016, if the US State Dept & travel laws allow it. I could see those restrictions lifted soon.
Cuba will be booming with new tourists & business development in the next 5 years or so.

 

[Telekinesis]

If you're looking for a pistol grip shotgun, I would not go with the Mosserg 500 because the safety is on the tang, which will be difficult to reach with a pistol grip. (otherwise, they are good guns, they just need a standard stock).

Don't let him get a PGO shotgun. Unless he plans on breaching the doors of his own vessel, of course.

I'd avoid OC too. Spraying OC in a confined area means that everybody looses. And I sure wouldn't want to have to decontaminate the whole interior of the boat...

I assume that since he is sailing in international waters/going to other countries, that his vessel is documented. Would changing the state of the documentation help in any way? Would a boat documented as a Florida vessel have more rights in a NYC harbor than a NY vessel? (I doubt it will as documentation is federal, but doesn't hurt to ask).

Once he is in international waters (as a US flagged vessel) he should be ok to have anything legal under federal law, but I don't know how that relates to state law while in the state's waters.

I would second the recommendation of a .308 semi-auto rifle. On the open water, distance is your friend - you want to take care of the problem before it ever gets on your boat. and if he ever has to use it, a .308 has a better chance of penetrating a hull/boat structure at range.

As far as specific Rifles, I'd recommend something of the FAL/HK91/M1A variety. I know there's almost no chance of these being legal in NY (let alone NYC) but it might be feasible to base the weapons in a non-New York port? I'd hate to be stuck with NY compliant weapons and mags on the open water.

Note: Slugs from the shotgun might be a good way to bridge the gap between a shotgun and a rifle for the near term. Just make sure he practices enough to use the slugs at distance.

 

[RustyShackelford]

response to T's post .....

Update:
I contacted the NYPD permit office(rifles/shotguns) but got the run-around, surprise right . A "supervisor" should be contacting me shortly to explain the city pump action shotgun laws/policy.
The boat does have several narrow & confined spaces(stairs, closets, staterooms, decks). A large shotgun pump or semi auto, or a rifle of any model or caliber could be a bit much for the boater(novice gun owner).

As for legal issues I sent him the link to www.boatlawyer.com . The law firm is based in Miami FL but knows a lot about US maritime law, travel, international waters, etc.
I advised him to look into Blueline Tactical's Utah non resident license class; www.bluelinetactical.com . He does NOT need a New York City gun permit or a registered firearm to take the Utah non resident class.
This course may not meet NYC/NYPD's gun safety mandate but the Utah non resident permit does help him get the CCWsafe.com legal defense policy. This program is valid in all 50 US states & possessions(USVI, PR, Guam, etc). The CCW Safe plan is ideal too because it covers any weapon in a lethal force event; handgun, shotgun, knife, taser/EDW, OC spray.

Rusty
PS: I'd add that 12ga slugs might be ideal for boat/marine defense. I like the Winchester LE Ranger T 12ga seperated slug. It's powerful yet offers control-marksmanship for personal defense.

 

[rodregier]

On a technical level look at one of the bullpup shotgun designs. Small overall length while permitting use of sights, stock, etc.

There are conversions available for the Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 among others.

http://www.bullpupunlimited.com/

 

[lemaymiami]

As usual RC covered the important parts. If you must defend your boat with a weapon -use a standard riot configured 12ga. or a military grade long gun (for longer distances)and forget all about that silly pistol grip.... I have a unique perspective on this since I was a cop for a lot of years and I'm also a boat captain (little boats, these days) who started out working on 45 to 55 foot chartermen down here in paradise (south Florida).

Here's hoping that you never have to use a firearm on a boat since nothing much on a boat provides protection from return fire (this the exact advice I gave my son who's in the Coast Guard and was trained to go 'weapons hot' on any size vessel as part of his job...). If fighting is necessary you don't want to be in close confines but out on deck - and your entire objective will be to keep any boarders from succeeding.... At bad breath ranges any firearm might be less than effective if you're in a hand to hand scenario...

Lastly (and this is something that there's been a few very bad examples of....) for any cruising sailor intending to visit other countries please take a moment to learn about that other country's firearms laws and don't think for a moment that you'll get the slightest leeway for any violation (and that includes ammo - declare less than you actually have on board and suffer the consequences if it's discovered...). Whether it's Mexico, the Bahamas, or ports of call down in the Caribbean, their firearm laws are very strict and they'll cheerfully seize your boat along with your body if they arrest... The chorus of that song "send lawyers, guns, and money" might have been written for anyone bringing guns down there..... if they're not strictly compliant with local laws...

 

[desidog]

You need to contact the Coast Guard; they're the ones who cut the holes in your boat after they find your gun while counting your PFD's.

Also, you'd better get a CT permit too, while sailing in the Sound... and you can't legally discharge lead in LI Sound either... I seem to recall.

 

[Speedo66]

As far as specific Rifles, I'd recommend something of the FAL/HK91/M1A variety. I know there's almost no chance of these being legal in NY (let alone NYC) but it might be feasible to base the weapons in a non-New York port? I'd hate to be stuck with NY compliant weapons and mags on the open water.

NY has a problem with pistol grips. No pistol grip, no problem. The M1A would be fine with a smaller magazine. Oh, and no threaded barrels.

An M1 Carbine with a10 round mag would be fine.

 

[BSA1]

I am not clear when he will need a firearm. Is it when he is in port or on open water repelling pirates? It seems to me if he is on open waters and already has boarders on his boat he is pretty much screwed.

A shotgun would be a ok for close range work but I am wondering why you have not recommended a revolver? A stainless steel revolver that has been hard chromed will make a excellent salt water gun. Most importantly he can have it on his person and use it to fight to the heavier stuff.

A short barrel shotgun is going to reduce the effective long range of slugs which means the attackers getting closer also. For open water I would want a .308 with A.P. ammo.

One other advantage of a shotgun is it is cheap enough to throw overboard when entering ports with strict gun control laws.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Warren Zevon, laws, update....

Yes Mr Zevon's words do ring true re: guns & laws-carry.
As a update, a local FFL holder and former US Navy officer informed me the kit version of the Mossberg 500 pump action 12ga is only $500.00 USD.

This includes a standard 18.5" shotgun barrel, both a factory pistol grip & shoulder stock with the Insight L3 weaponlight.

All told, $500.00 sounds right for boat/defense shotgun he can shoot skeet with or wield at night or in a declared/serious emergency.

As for cleaning & CLP stuff, I'm suggesting Ballistol or Froglube liquid. The Ballistol could be handy on the boats or the weapon(s).

 

[RPRNY]

RC as usual gives good advice. A Mossberg or Remington marine 12ga with stock would be better than one of those absurd pistol grip thinggies. Against pirates a high capacity 308 would be excellent.

However, in jurisdictions outside the US possession of firearms on the boat is a problem and while my experience is 80s and 90s and may no longer hold true, it was generally the case that most Caribbean customs folks would turn a blind eye to a shotgun kept in a locker but would freak on hand guns or rifles.

A NYC resident is required to register long guns, not get a permit. A non NYC resident should not bring a gun of any description into the City. The cops will take the gun and lock you up as soon as look at you. You may eventually go free but ever getting the gun back is unlikely....

 

[RustyShackelford]

Cerakote....

A nickel, Metalife, NP3+, or coating may help a pump action 12ga used on boats or near marine environments but I think he can get by with Froglube or Ballistol for now.
A .308 or 7.62x52mm rifle is a non starter. The yacht owner has 0 to little firearm training & isn't trying to be a ACE/DevGru/MARSOC trooper .
I agree a SBR or M4 in 5.56mm or 7.62mm might be ideal but that's for advanced gun owners.
Plus, the boater is a New York City resident. I think a Mossberg standard 500 pump action with a standard stock & Insight L3 foregrip light will be fine.

Rusty

 

[LemmyCaution]

Plus, the boater is a New York City resident. I think a Mossberg standard 500 pump action with a standard stock & Insight L3 foregrip light will be fine.

For The Win.

 

[RustyShackelford]

If it were me .....

I'd get a Serbu Super Shorty 12ga from Tim Serbu at www.serbufirearms.com in central Florida.

Really, I'd add Robar NP3+: www.robarguns.com or maybe Cerakote just to protect the weapon from the salt air, sea water, moisture.
I was thinking the stainless steel bolt action Ruger Scout .308 rifle with a powerful red dot sight could work for the open sea(pirates, repel attacks, etc).

I like the big N frame S&W M&P R8 .357 too for CQB use, vehicles(in port, rentals) but that could be unyieldy in the boat.
You could swing the M&P R8 revolver around like a club in a lethal force event.

Rusty S

 

[cheygriz]

Get a Remington 1100 semi with a nice, pretty walnut sporter stock and 22 inch barrel.

It will "look" like a nice "sporting/hunting" shotgun, and won't arouse suspicion from paranoid, gun hating Northeastern folk, but will do a better job for his purposes than any pump riot gun. And a nice "sporting" .308 like a Remington 7400 with an aftermarket 10 round magazine. But keep the 5 round factory mag in the gun so it will look "innocent."

The " licenses and permits" will be 10X easier to get and won't arouse suspicion.

 

[RustyShackelford]

white light .....

I can see the merits of a "trap" or "sporting" type 12ga but the cool Insight L3 white-light is a dealbreaker. I'm inclined to have a Mossberg 500 pump with the 18.5" barrel & the Insight L3 foregrip. The bright light could stun or disorient a attacker-pirate. The specs say it includes a strobe which is bonus, . This feature could be helpful to signal other boaters or ships/first responders.

The 1100 semi auto shotgun is nice. My father has a used shotgun that he's hunted with since the 1970s or so. My cousin bought a used 1100 shotgun in the late 1990s. I cleaned it out & had it looking LNIB with a big can of Ballistol.

For the boater, I think a stainless steel Wiley Clapp Ruger GP .357magnum 3" barrel would be a great sidearm, back-up. It's compact, robust & safe to carry.
He'd need to get a NYPD/NYC handgun permit for it, but he could carry it with the Utah non resident license in a few places(VA, GA, FL, NC, etc).

 

[Davek1977]

I'll never understand the desire for a PGO shotgun in all but a few tiny scenarios most people will never be faced with. I want a weapon I can control and shoot effectively, both marks against a PGO, especially for someone who doesn't shoot often. There are so many other firearms that accomplish the same goals so much more effectively, IMO. Unless this person is willing to put in the time (and pain) it takes to learn to shoot such a gun effectively, I'd be steering him in another direction totally, rather than tryung ways to justify his rather poor choice. You can mount such lights on many firearms, so I can't see the bright light/strobe being the ultimate selling point for choosing a PGO. It just makes so little sense to me

 

[BSA1]

My new friend travels often by boat(small yacht).

The best advice has been overlooked. Since your new friend can afford a small yacht he can afford to take some firearm training courses.

He needs to learn about self-defense laws with in U.S. waters and ports. By taking some firearm classes he can learn what type of guns he likes and shoots best.

Personally a shotgun would not be my first choice but I am a landlubber.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Points ....

First, the boat owner has been around boating/yachts for many years. He's fully aware of the ins/outs of being onboard boats of different sizes. His recent purchase of a larger boat(small yacht) is something he wants to use for travel & cruises all over. His choice of a 12ga shotgun is for trap-skeet but he's also expressed a interest in having the firearm for personal defense.
As noted: he can't use Tasers & OC sprays aren't very practical.
Also, I posted already how the boater knows he will need to take a few courses & learn the laws, tactics, skills. I suggested www.bluelinetactical.com but the classes from www.sigsaueracademy.com could help too, .

The boat owner is aware & understands he must adhere the local-state-country laws/customs SOPs. I informed him of www.gunlawguide.com www.nraila.org & www.handgunlaw.us .

 

[Davek1977]

If he wants a gun for trap and skeet, why are we even debating the merits of a PGO? Sounds the like person who actually wants the gun doesn't want one(PGO), but the guy helping him shop does. He'd be better served most likely byu HIS choice of wapon rather than yours.....a PGO si among the most impractical of firearms for MOST people, let alone novice shooters. A full-stocked shotgun like the 870 or Mossberg 500, with two barrels....a short, 18-20 incher for defensive purposes, and a longer barrel for the target shooting he wants to do. Just because YOU think a PGO with a fore grip light is the beens knees in defensive firearms, doesn't make it so.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....His choice of a 12ga shotgun is for trap-skeet but he's also expressed a interest in having the firearm for personal defense....

But it the first post you wrote:

...I've advised a Cruiser style 12ga with pistol grips for CQB/close quarters. One 500 comes with a slick ambi control strobe light & a recoil reducer. It's aggressive & intimidating too but not impractical for a yacht IMO....

If your friend is also interested in a shotgun for trap or skeet, why would you recommend a cruiser style? A PGO is completely useless for trap and skeet.