Quuensland (Australia) ups the ante on "gun crime"

[Bruce in West Oz]

From a Sporting Shooters Association of Australia e-mail alert.

25/05/03

STATE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCES INCREASES TO PENALTIES FOR ILLEGAL FIREARMS TRAFFICKING AND MANUFACTURE

The State Government will impose a range of tough new penalties in an
effort to crack down on illegal firearms trafficking by organised
criminals in Queensland, as part of a new national firearms trafficking
agreement.

Police Minister Tony McGrady said today that under new laws currently
before State Parliament, possession of ten or more firearms, where at
least half are military style fully automatic weapons, would now attract
the new penalty of up to 13 years imprisonment.

Mr McGrady said, under the new scheme, if a person illegally possessed
10 lesser weapons the penalty would be a maximum of 10 years
imprisonment.

He said unlawful possession of a single 'category R' weapon, which
included military style automatic weapons and sub machine guns, would
now attract a penalty of up to seven years imprisonment and fines of up
to $22,500.

"Unlicensed possession of flick knives, cross bows and martial arts
style weapons will attract a penalty of up to two years imprisonment and
fines of up to $7500," Mr McGrady said.

Mr McGrady said penalties for illegal firearms manufacture would also be
increased, with penalties for producing military style automatic weapons
and sub-machine guns to attract up to 10 years imprisonment and fines of
up to $37,500.

"Illegal manufacture of semiautomatic rifles (10 round capacity), semi
automatic shotguns (5 round capacity), pump action shot guns (5 round
capacity) and illegal bullet proof vests will now attract a penalty of
seven years imprisonment or a fines of up to $22,500.

"Illegal production of flick knives, cross bows and martial arts style
weapons will attract a penalty of up to four years imprisonment and
fines of up to $15,000."

Mr McGrady said current penalties for possession or manufacture of
illegal weapons ranged up to a maximum of no greater than two years
imprisonment and fines of $7500.

"In Queensland at present there is no specific penalty for bulk
possession of illegal firearms," he said.

"The new laws will significantly increase penalties for these serious
offences. This is about trying to take illegal weapons out of the hands
of criminals and improving the safety of all Queenslanders," Mr McGrady
said.

"Firearms trafficking is one of the most serious forms of organised
crime and I make no apologies for the hard approach we are taking.
These tough new laws are an indication of the commitment of all
Australian Government's to crack down on this activity."

Mr McGrady said there had also been about 1250 unlawful possession of
concealable firearms offences and 5654 unlawful possession of other
firearm offences reported in Queensland during the last five years.

"These new laws send a clear message that all Australian Governments are
united in their efforts to crackdown on firearm related crime.

"This is about ensuring organised criminals do not have access to these
dangerous weapons and I am confident the community will welcome these
moves," he said.

Bruce

 

[Pilgrim]

It seems to me that Australia has reached that point where the only ones left possessing illegal firearms will be the ones willing to fight to the death rather than go to prison.

 

[Standing Wolf]

If I were a violent criminal, I believe I'd be hard-pressed to decide between England and Australia.

 

[DrPsycho]

Flashlights are illegal under strict adherence to Australian law.

It's a device that could temporarily incapacitate a person if shone directly at their eyes, hence it's an offensive weapon under the summary of offenses act 1998, section 2b, part 4.

 

[fallingblock]

Standing Wolf....

"If I were a violent criminal, I believe I'd be hard-pressed to decide between England and Australia."
****************************************************

Britain is the best choice...
the victims are much more tightly packed into a smaller space.

A crim can wear themself out here just travelling!

(just in case there are any aspiring crims reading this.......

discouraging rhetoric is about all we've left for 'self-defence' nowadays )

 

[WonderNine]

Flashlights are illegal under strict adherence to Australian law.

It's a device that could temporarily incapacitate a person if shone directly at their eyes, hence it's an offensive weapon under the summary of offenses act 1998, section 2b, part 4.

That can't be true....I've seen alot, but I don't believe that.

 

[Mr. Bombastic]

Flashlights are illegal under strict adherence to Australian law.

Well pencils and scissors are technically illegal over here, so there!

 

[Battler]

I don't think flashlights are illegal.

But I "heard" that there was a "pro self defense" bill to exempt automatically triggered floodlights from being able to be used as the basis for a civil suit by a burglar.

 

[Waitone]

The issue is much larger than gun control.

The overarching issue is that of the state (be it Australia or UK) denying its citizens and inhabitants the human right to self-defense.

Denying the right of self defense and replacing it with police protection is to prepare for a thoroughly totalitarian state.

 

[P95Carry]

Denying the right of self defense and replacing it with police protection

This highlights one of the greatest anachronisms of all time ....... namely that a police force can actually protect! Sure a force can (attempt to) track down criminals and reducing their number but ..... and this is where the right to self defence becomes so vital ....... there is NO way a police force can protect everyone, all of the time.

Maybe a population where 50% is made up of cops .. so there is ''one-on-one'' for protection. OK .. I know that's stupid! But so is expecting people to be not only defenceless but even being treated as criminals if they do even try and defend themselves.

The whole issue is being tackled in quite the wrong way ..... but then that I guess is totalitarianism for ya.

 

[WonderNine]

Ok, found out the flashlight thing is B.S as I figured. Flashlights are legal in Aussieland.

 

[Battler]

Don't blame the politicians. (No offense to other Australians on this board) but having lived in the US for a while, I see the typical Australian (even rural ones who are being hard fu**ed over) as having more the traits of livestock than people.

I visited Australia for 3 weeks a couple years back. It made me want to get back to the US and give Al Gore a big hug.

In Australia, "award wage", minimum wage on a per-job basis, are set by the government. An Australian is a "professional voter", every election is a referendum on the redistribution of money from someone else.

The treehuggery there makes Ralph Nader look like Ayn Rand. As an "outsider", I can only describe the experience of being there like being in the movie "Children of the Corn".

In the US environmentalists try to stop you from building new stuff. In Australia they have you tear it down.

The environmentalist propoganda in the socialist education centers is off the scale. I honestly wonder what the hell I was thinking. I used to go around telling deliberate contradictory lies about engine technology, even though with my mechanical and engineering knowledge I should have known better.

I can't rememeber much of what I was thinking in my earlier years, or if I was at all.

But I can tell you that if you walk up to 99% of Australians and say "gun owners", it will be translated on the way from ears to brain to "kiddie porn producer". Those opposing any gun ban are a VERY small minority, and even THOSE who I know most are anti-pistol, or anti-carry.

No principled defense of individual liberty can be brought up as it is in the US, as even amongst those who protest this infringement or that, VERY few are actually have knowledge of the concept of liberty itself.

If the Australian government were not rounding up guns, they would not be representing the prejudices of 99% of the population.


Hope I didn't raise any blood pressures in Oz with this. If you (choose to) take nothing else out of this post, acknowledge at least that for the "man on the street" any given gun ban has almost unanimous support - for government to do otherwise would be suicide for the party concerned.


And I'd still pay a grand for a fresh meat pie. . . . .

 

[P95Carry]

acknowledge at least that for the "man on the street" any given gun ban has almost unanimous support - for government to do otherwise would be suicide for the party concerned

sadly Battler ... that could pretty much be said also in UK too I'd reckon ........ it's all about votes more than anything ...... that's how they got away with 1997's debacle.

In both instances, it seems the vast majority are prepared to sit back as defenceless peons as their society becomes ever more totalitarian around them. Seems like most have forgotten (if they ever even knew) that every person should have (and retain) their inate right to self defence ... cos sure as hell ... no one else is gonna see to it for them!

 

[Bruce in West Oz]

acknowledge at least that for the "man on the street" any given gun ban has almost unanimous support

Maybe ... but if the "man on the street" is on the far side of 50, I think you'd get a different answer. We're reaping the "benefits" of 30 years of socialism in our educational institutions and government.

Plus, I have to say, the media here have a very "cute" way of playing up every single shooting in the USA -- which you blokes seem to do with a monotonous regularity.

"Professional voter"? Well, voting is compulsory here, remember.

But I can tell you that if you walk up to 99% of Australians and say "gun owners", it will be translated on the way from ears to brain to "kiddie porn producer"

No, absolutely not!! .... Worse, much worse.

And I'd still pay a grand for a fresh meat pie. . . . .

Always thought of starting that up as a business in the USA -- fresh Nelly Blighs with train smash.

Anyway, I'll call in to Miss Maud's at lunchtime and check out the home-baked hot pies -- mince, steak, steak and onion, steak and mushroom, curried beef, shepherd's pie, chili beef, steak and cheese, pasties, sausage rolls, bacon, leek and potato rolls ..... plus others I've forgotten.


Bruce

 

[fallingblock]

No offence taken, Battler....

That's about the way it's been going the eight years I've been here in Oz.:banghead:

Bruce is absolutely correct about the age-group making a big difference...there are a lot more independent-minded and capable Ozzies on the far side of fifty than coming up, I'm sad to say. It could be the socialist education system and probably has a lot to do with the level of urban population here.
And the media...well, they are 'self regulating' when it comes to handling complaints. As one of many who has wasted some time trying to get editorial corrections from the "Weakened Australian", I can certify the system is broken....or rather, it is functioning as intended!

At least we Yanks have the Second Amendment to fight with...and a fair number of folks who were raised with guns and know the story.

 

[Deadman]

Well, here is at least one Australian under the age of 50 (23) that understands and appreciates the notion of true freedom.
But then again I'm actually South African so maybe I don't count...

 

[Bruce in West Oz]

Deadman

But then again I'm actually South African so maybe I don't count...

No, mate, it's not for that reason at all. You see, in the eyes of the govt, the media and the antis, the mere fact that you like firearms, value freedom, are independent, self-reliant and not one of the herd means that you (and I) "don't count".



Bruce

 

[fallingblock]

Correct, Bruce.....

"the mere fact that you like firearms, value freedom, are independent, self-reliant and not one of the herd means that you (and I) "don't count"."
****************************************************
Being "Not one of the herd" really worries the anti-type folks, doesn't it?

 

[hipower22]

Battler:

"Don't blame the politicians. (No offense to other Australians on this board) but having lived in the US for a while, I see the typical Australian (even rural ones who are being hard fu**ed over) as having more the traits of livestock than people."

Thanks for the compliment (!) if I can return it, I will.

"I visited Australia for 3 weeks a couple years back. It made me want to get back to the US and give Al Gore a big hug."

Bully for you. I hope Al enjoyed it.

"In Australia, "award wage", minimum wage on a per-job basis, are set by the government. An Australian is a "professional voter", every election is a referendum on the redistribution of money from someone else."

Wrong. The award wage is the minimum wage. Labor Unions can, and do, negotiate agreements with companies - and isn't that what happems in the US?

"The treehuggery there makes Ralph Nader look like Ayn Rand. As an "outsider", I can only describe the experience of being there like being in the movie "Children of the Corn". In the US environmentalists try to stop you from building new stuff. In Australia they have you tear it down.

And this doesn't happen in the US?
http://www.thehighroad.org//showthread.php?s=&threadid=24279

"The environmentalist propoganda in the socialist education centers is off the scale. I honestly wonder what the hell I was thinking. I used to go around telling deliberate contradictory lies about engine technology, even though with my mechanical and engineering knowledge I should have known better."

Yes and most of these stupid ideas are copied from US educators.

"I can't remember much of what I was thinking in my earlier years, or if I was at all."

No comment.

"But I can tell you that if you walk up to 99% of Australians and say "gun owners", it will be translated on the way from ears to brain to "kiddie porn producer". Those opposing any gun ban are a VERY small minority, and even THOSE who I know most are anti-pistol, or anti-carry."

Well, you're obviously talking to the wrong people.

"No principled defense of individual liberty can be brought up as it is in the US, as even amongst those who protest this infringement or that, VERY few are actually have knowledge of the concept of liberty itself."

Unmitigated crap.

"If the Australian government were not rounding up guns, they would not be representing the prejudices of 99% of the population."

On what evidence do you base this statement?


"Hope I didn't raise any blood pressures in Oz with this. If you (choose to) take nothing else out of this post, acknowledge at least that for the "man on the street" any given gun ban has almost unanimous support - for government to do otherwise would be suicide for the party concerned."

You certainly raised my blood pressure. Almost unanimous support? Not among anyone I know.

 

[Battler]

Award wage is PER-JOB minimum wage.

I have "a friend" whose wife worked a job for someone for a mutually agreed upon pay. Then, when she quit, they got the government to ransack the employer for the difference between her pay and the "award wage" FOR THAT JOB. Rationalize this sick act however you want, yes, Unions are quite likely involved (being the highest branch of government anyway); but around here unions tend to negotiate this stuff BEFORE the work starts - although in the US union activity is a per-state thing, because of "right to work laws", the good and bad of which I won't go into here.

At least having the government able to shake down your prior employer puts the Mafia out of business.

Defend it all you want; but it IS a consequence of "professional voting".

Disgusting.

Some things like this happen in America; but as yet, you don't have EVERY single person seeing the ballot box as a way to steal from his neighbor.


Admittedly, I must know a more restricted cross-section of Australians than you do. Those I communicate with only include Queensland farmers, a lawyer who works solely in environmental cases, gun store owners. . . .

I've heard the worst environmentalist abuses defended by the farmers it fu**s over - "oh well, it saves the bugs".

I got to see witness an >30 year old airstrip shut down indefinitely because there were wallabies on it that they couldn't even shake away (of course, the pilot told me that the tropical bird sanctuary they'd put next door was far more dangerous).

I got to see a chunk of the Bruce Highway moved over 50 yards because someone allegedly found a dead rare bat on the road. (Yes, I'm sure this nonsense happens in the US).

I had someone who had used a Mini-14 in self defense (well sort of, if you count someone saying "I'll kill your kids" showing up and the defender hunkering down until they left, as self defense) sticking up for gun bans on how it really was better for society overall that the guns are gone.

I had to (unsuccessfully) defend concealed carry to a gunstore owner (he'd just shown me a 1911, and I said "yeah, that's what I carry").

Pretty much everybody was always talking about the trees. "Look over there, what beautiful trees". "Oh well, the govt. cancelled the logging industry in town and put a thousand out of work; but now we have the beautiful trees. Let's go see the trees!" The media's constant environmentalist plugging on TV was off the scale. Really put the ecomarxist CNN in perspective.


As for guns, admittedly I don't know any actual SSAA members, who I'm sure would oppose any ban on registered flintlocks. But I had rural people, and PEOPLE WHO OWN GUNS, and PEOPLE WHO HAD GUNS CONFISCATED, defending the gun laws. "Better than becoming like America" was heard.

Also, any given gun ban is presented to the average disinterested person as a total ban. So I also heard "we had to ban those guns so the average man on the street wouldn't come after US, too".


I know a vacation is meant to be fun; but it was a very demoralizing experience going back to that place. I guess fecal matter only smells bad if one quits dunking in it for a few years.

 

[Battler]

hipower:

Most people in Australia VERY strongly support gun control.

To deny this is delusional.

If your response is "nobody I know" I suggest you step outside of the SSAA meeting. I don't advocate wasting time with such people; but to deny that they exist is folly and in and of itself will not help you to stop further gun controls.

 

[fallingblock]

Battler, what you observed....

is true.
The vast majority of (urban) Australians have been misled/conned into believing that they mustn't "go down the U.S. path" with firearms ownership.

In my correspondence with Tim Fischer, former leader of the National Party (traditionally the 'rural' party here), the concept that "No one 'needs' a semi-auto or pump action gun" kept surfacing...and Tim was on our side!

Are you an Aussie expat? Some of the ones I meet are amazed at the changes in Australian society over the past thirty years-not many of them for the good, they reckon.

I believe compulsory voting here facilitates the imposition of socialist policies upon the population, as does the electoral weight of an 85% urban population base-for most of whom T.V. and movies are their only experience of firearms.

hipower is a mate of mine...I assure you he isn't delusional-
just perhaps completely frustrated with trying to let some reason and truth into what is, for all practical purposes here, a debate closed by the government and media.
.
He has been the driving force in two of his local shooting clubs for well, next-to-forever, always active in SSAA, and has stood as a political candidate to try and promote a return to reason in Australian politics.

Battler, having been here and experienced what you describe, try to imagine being one who is proud of Australia's history and achievements and is now forced to endure the disgusting descent into a silly socialist nanny-state, where government will 'make' you safe, and 'the environment' has become a quasi-religion outside the realm of humans!

Then, look at the trends in the U.S.

 

[Bruce in West Oz]

From Macquarie:

award wage noun a wage arrived at by mutual consent or arbitration and fixed by an industrial court, payable by law to all employees in a particular occupation.

Per-occupation, not per-job.

 

[Battler]

Bruce:

Sorry. Semantics, I knew it was per-OCCUPATION, I used the word "job" in a subtly different way - I suspect Job is used semantically in the US as "occupation" as well (or I just misuse it in general).

That said, I can think of little that disgusts me more; but that's another story.


fallingblock:

Yes, I am an ex-pat. "Battler" - get it? I'll probably change it soon, though. I didn't go to Australia as a tourist; but stayed with family and friends around the place. I didn't look at the place on the tourist trail; but the day to day life, checking in on how things are done there (still LOOSELY have financial interests in Oz), watching TV.

I didn't notice a change in Australia since I left; but a change in me. I was disgusted because I think and think more, not because I am used to something else. Aspects of the decay present in Australia exist in America too, more in some states than others - and I reject them here as well. Perhaps in the US the small consolation I get is that there are a few people around me who can, say, reject ALL redistribution of wealth under the gun, without exception - amongst other things.

Australia annoys you. Going back made me physically sick. The nightmares of "waking up" living there started again. . . . . .

Australia's decay could probably be traced back to WW2 with the federal power and taxation that didn't go away. But chicken or the egg - does government making people welfare children cause them to become socialists, or vice versa? Everybody is heavily taxed, yet payed for having kids, Austudy, etc. etc. There are many ways in which voting has a "Profession", can't list them all. I could terrify the typical Australian by suggesting that he could exist without his welfare payments and socialist medicine, even though he'd probably be better off getting all used to it makes liberty incomprehensible and scary.

I don't know if that makes a difference with how hipower perceives my cracks at Australians, that I am/was one, and, in my own way, somewhat know what I am talking about. But I figured if he were my neighboUr, we'd be knocking back some beverages. I had no idea he had SSAA prominence - keep up the good work, you're doing your best in impossible circumstances.

I certainly don't mean to knock SSAA members, on issues of guns that's as good as it gets. My references (made up; but sadly, probably too accurate) to the sheer number of people who are anti-gun are based upon my own communications with many people. Indeed, a disproportionate number of them are not urban; but RURAL QUEENSLANDERS. I just figure that would be some of the most pro-gun and anti-tree-hugging you could get - but I was/am not impressed.

But I have friends and family in all walks of life. A couple of them quite prominent in their professions.

I don't subscribe to national achievements much, whether it be the US or Australia. That men with balls the size of watermelons hacked a country out of an uninhabitable hell with a machete have nothing to do with me if I'm a perpetually-stoned triple-J listener with a hammer and sickle tattooed on my arm.

Achievements by Australians though - Rupert Murdoch (reviled for his ability and success). His modus operandi is buying some low-valued property, having people laugh at him for buying crap, then building it up and leaving his competition in the dust. I'll tell you this - Fox in the US was a joke amongst jokes before Murdoch bought it. Nobody is laughing now - Fox has risen and is starting to beat its competition to death. I don't know if it is his politics shining through, or merely his other trait of searching for un-served audiences; but Fox News contains some news anchors etc. who are not communists.

The pro-liberty side actually gets to speak. Gun owners and southerners aren't ridiculed as stupid rednecks, the need for whose suppression being a given, and the NRA as an obstacle. Achievers are held up and celebrated. News anchors don't talk down to you, you feel like they're talking to you from the next couch.

anyhoo:

later.

Battler.

 

[fallingblock]

Good Onya' Battler....

Yes, I suspected that you were an expat, but despite the forum name I didn't want to assume.
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"Aspects of the decay present in Australia exist in America too, more in some states than others - and I reject them here as well. Perhaps in the US the small consolation I get is that there are a few people around me who can, say, reject ALL redistribution of wealth under the gun, without exception - amongst other things."
****************************************************

I suspect if any single aspect of the American situation will be able to 'pull the fat out of the fire', this will be it. There are still quite a few who aren't buying the socialist line, but I fear they are being swamped by illegal immigration and indoctrinated victims of public education. Having said that, my daughter back in Indiana is as pro-gun as they come...good genes?


****************************************************
"There are many ways in which voting has a "Profession", can't list them all. I could terrify the typical Australian by suggesting that he could exist without his welfare payments and socialist medicine, even though he'd probably be better off getting all used to it makes liberty incomprehensible and scary."
****************************************************

As I mentioned, compulsory voting seems to assist the advance the agenda of big government...

I have found the socialised medicine to be no bargain...especially once the Medicare levy was used as a vehicle to "buy back" the firearms of thousands of law-abiding Aussies.

****************************************************
"Indeed, a disproportionate number of them are not urban; but RURAL QUEENSLANDERS. I just figure that would be some of the most pro-gun and anti-tree-hugging you could get - but I was/am not impressed."
****************************************************

Yes, the "Australian disease" (media-induced irrational response to firearms) is widespread, even in the rural areas.
A lot of Queenslanders are recent escapees from the cities to the south. Beattie's government has hatched the more draconian of the 'new' handgun laws.
What part of Queensland? I lived in Townsville and Emerald before landing in the Territory. Ironically, part of my work was with Bridled Nail-Tailed Wallabies...and you are spot-on about the excesses of the 'Enviro-nazis' ...just to relocate a wallaby to a national park, ostensibly to 'save' them, seven different agencies had to sign off on the transfer, including an animal rights vet.! As an interesting aside, my Uni. of Qld. supervisor was a PhD and a shooter, the rare 'practical' academic who truly understood the workings of nature and sought a balance between environmental extremism and habitat destruction.


****************************************************"Fox in the US was a joke amongst jokes before Murdoch bought it. Nobody is laughing now - Fox has risen and is starting to beat its competition to death. "
****************************************************

Go, Fox, go! The U.S. was oversupplied with left-wing socialist sycophant networks...it was past time for a change

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"The pro-liberty side actually gets to speak. Gun owners and southerners aren't ridiculed as stupid rednecks, the need for whose suppression being a given, and the NRA as an obstacle. Achievers are held up and celebrated."
****************************************************

No such luck here, as you know. The ABC blathers on and on about the evil U.S. and the Australian commercial networks are beneath contempt. Perhaps Murdoch should lift his game here