Rainier, Berry's and X-Treme - how similar for loading data?

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I did some bargain/discount shopping and got a good haul of X-Treme bullets 124gr. HP 9mm, 100gr. RNFP in .380ACP, and 155gr. RNFP in .40S&W. I also plan to try Ramshot True Blue for each of these since it has a reputation for being THE powder for all things 9mm/.38 (as opposed to: Red Dot, Bullseye, 700X, Unique, and HS6 which I have good loads for in my loads book). It's the .380 I'm a little not sure about. Neither Western nor X-Treme provide data specific to those bullets but Western does provide data for Berry's and Rainier and they are close but not identical - the Berry's is a hollow-base and the Rainier is a solid base, both are round nose. I typically don't get worked up about differences between manufacturers but this is a new powder to me and a new bullet so if anyone has some definitive data and can say if the Rainier and X-Treme are too different to use starting loads for them interchangeably, I'd appreciate it.

Shortages create bargains but you have to be flexible to take advantage of them and I'm just cheap enough.. er, I mean BOLD enough to not mind experimenting - safely!

FWIW: Western gives a starting load of 3.7gr. of True Blue @ 820fps and a max. load of 4.4gr. @ 941fps & 21,491psi w/ COAL of 0.960". X-Treme recommends three possible powders (which I don't have) but only one load per powder. The highest pressure load they recommend is 4.1gr. of CFE Pistol @ 962fps & 19,327psi w/ COAL of 0.950". Pretty obviously, I will NOT be approaching the max load for True Blue.

 

[Dudedog]

I have used the non hollow base Berrys and Xtremes in .380 with a different powder.
I used the Rainer data for the Xtreme. The Xtreme loaded the same depth in the case will have a shorter OAL due to being a Round nose flat point.
You should be good to go using start charges for the Rainier with the Xtreme.

The Berrys Hollow base bullet is only .1gr higher.
If you want to do some measuring figure out how much of the Rainer is in the case at .96 and adjust your OAL for the Xtreme to have the same amount of the Xtreme bullet in the case.
All the charges for 90 to 100gr bullets are within .1 gr.
Given that you don't have the same cases, lot of powder, lot of primers, temp, barrel etc as they did when working up their test loads, any of the things I mentioned could make a .1 gr difference.
Never used True Blue but it is a mid speed burn range powder so .1 gr of it will have less effect that .1 gr of something faster like Tightgroup. (the larger the charge the small % .1 gr is)

As a side note depending on your pistol you may have to load close to MAX to get proper function.
Again I have never used True Blue but I wouldn't feel uncomfortable using the Xtreme and working up to the Rainer MAX load.
(given that you adjust the OAL so the bullet is taking up the same amount of space in the case as the Rainer)
For .380 my 2 go to powders are AA#2 for anything less than max loads (meters great) and CFE-P for MAX loads.
Have fun, be safe, hope True Blue works well for you.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have used the non hollow base Berrys and Xtremes in .380 with a different powder.
I used the Rainer data for the Xtreme. The Xtreme loaded the same depth in the case will have a shorter OAL due to being a Round nose flat point.
You should be good to go using start charges for the Rainier with the Xtreme.
View attachment 1005812
The Berrys Hollow base bullet is only .1gr higher.
If you want to do some measuring figure out how much of the Rainer is in the case at .96 and adjust your OAL for the Xtreme to have the same amount of the Xtreme bullet in the case.
All the charges for 90 to 100gr bullets are within .1 gr.
Given that you don't have the same cases, lot of powder, lot of primers, temp, barrel etc as they did when working up their test loads, any of the things I mentioned could make a .1 gr difference.
Never used True Blue but it is a mid speed burn range powder so .1 gr of it will have less effect that .1 gr of something faster like Tightgroup. (the larger the charge the small % .1 gr is)

As a side note depending on your pistol you may have to load close to MAX to get proper function.
Again I have never used True Blue but I wouldn't feel uncomfortable using the Xtreme and working up to the Rainer MAX load.
(given that you adjust the OAL so the bullet is taking up the same amount of space in the case as the Rainer)
For .380 my 2 go to powders are AA#2 for anything less than max loads (meters great) and CFE-P for MAX loads.
Have fun, be safe, hope True Blue works well for you.

Well, seeing as I have a new pound bottle of AA#2 as well, maybe I'll stick with that and leave the TB for 9mmP and .40S&W...

What I'm looking for is a nice, light, accurate load for my wife's Walther PK380. It's a locked-breech, tilting block pistol so it already isn't as snappy as fixed-barrel pistols but I'd like to get it down to about .22 recoil, if I can.

Thanks! Makes sense to try #2 and TB and see which is lighter recoiling.

 

[Dudedog]

A lighter charge of AA#2 will have less recoil at the same vel as a heavier charge of True Blue,
I don't consider AA#2 snappy however I go against trend for my USPSA minor loads and use WSF.
To me the recoil impulse of the slower powder feels softer even if by the math the recoil must be heavier due to a heavier powder charge.
I would say try both and see what she (and the gun) like.
My .380 is a little Kahr so in that size gun (tiny) and full power loads feels snappier than a 125 PF load in my 9mm 1911

Not your bullet but chrono data for AA#2 (some of my AA#2 380 data seems to be hiding at the moment)
Kahr P380 2.5" barrel, mixed range brass, S+B SP, charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 6
Date: 5/15/2016
Time: 12:47:27 PM
Grains: 90
Hi Vel: 793
Low Vel: 777
Ave Vel: 784
Ext Spread: 16
Std Dev: 7
380 3.1 #2 CMJ 100 RN @ .96
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
793 71.37 125.658
777 69.93 120.639
779 70.11 121.26
788 70.92 124.079

This is factory Federal out of the same gun to give you a vel for reference (so the above load is softer than factory)
String: 2
Date: 8/14/2016
Time: 8:44:02 AM
Grains: 95
Hi Vel: 845
Low Vel: 826
Ave Vel: 832
Ext Spread: 19
Std Dev: 7
Federal .380 95 FMJ
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
845 80.275 150.605
828 78.66 144.606
835 79.325 147.061
829 78.755 144.955
826 78.47 143.908

 

[Seymour380]

Just picked up my first pound of Ramshot Zip and first pound of AA#2. Plan on trying them out with Berry's or Everglades 100 gr. FB bullets in 380 acp Makarov. The loads I worked up for Red Dot, PB, and Bullseye are identical between the two brands of bullets.

I imagine the starting loads should be very close if not identical in practice between the Berry's and Rainier 100 gr. bullets, GeoDude. Let us know how you do with the AA#2 please.

 

[Dudedog]

Some 380 zip data
Kahr P380 2.5" barrel, mixed range brass, S+B SP, charges as thrown after setting measure

String: 3
Date: 5/15/2016
Time: 12:05:53 PM
Grains: 90
Hi Vel: 797
Low Vel: 728
Ave Vel: 773
Ext Spread: 69
Std Dev: 28
380 3.2 ZIP Sierra 90gr HP
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
796 71.64 126.611
728 65.52 105.903
797 71.73 126.929
782 70.38 122.196
763 68.67 116.33

Forgot to stick the OAL in the chrono comment

String: 1
Date: 5/15/2016
Time: 8:22:57 AM
Grains: 100
Hi Vel: 862
Low Vel: 791
Ave Vel: 818
Ext Spread: 71
Std Dev: 26
.380 3.3 ZIP XTP
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
814 81.4 147.113
815 81.5 147.474
791 79.1 138.917
811 81.1 146.03
862 86.2 164.974
Forgot to stick the OAL in the chrono comment
Must have been hot that day, brain frying in the sun.....

Ramshot data


ZIP meters ok, but AA#2 meters much better!
I really like AA#2 for .380 since it meters so well for me.

 

[Seymour380]

Thanks for the Zip data Dudedog. I really like how AA#5 and AA#7 meter, so I thought I would give AA#2 a go.

Looks like I can load up some 38 special and 357 mag (light) with AA#2 and Zip also. Trying to be as efficient as I can when buying components. Looking forward to trying the two new powders with 95 gr Acme lead coated bullets and Hornady 90 gr. XTP's. This is why I enjoy reloading so much, always another recipe to try out

 

[SingleActionAndrew]

Some of my labradar 380 measures, sample size here is 7 for each

Test gun SIG P238L ~2.5' bbl

Fiocchi factory defensive ammo
Hornady XTP 90gr
COL .970
Avg FPS 849
Std Dev 19.7

Vihtavuori N320 2.9gr
Hornady XTP 90gr
COL .985 (binds in one of four mags)
CCI SPP
Avg FPS 769
Std Dev 13.3

Vihtavuori N320 3.1gr
Hornady XTP 90gr
COL .980
CCI SPP
Avg FPS 817
Std Dev 29.5

I really enjoy using a chronograph. There is a not-so-unreasonable assumption that the factory ammo isn't going to be beyond standard pressure specifications. So if you start by measuring factory pistol ammo with the same weight (or best yet, same bullet) projectile, and seat to have the same or slightly more case volume under the bullet, and start at the low end of the load data, you have a pretty good idea of where you fall in the safe case pressure range.

Those powder puff loads cycle my Sig 100% reliably, but I use .970 now for COL for more reliable feeding in the mags

 

[Dudedog]

This is why I enjoy reloading so much, always another recipe to try out

There's an adventure in every jar of a new to you powder.

Just in case anyone is using CFE-P
Same gun Kahr P380 2.5" barrel, S+P SP, Mixed range brass, charges as thrown after setting measure
Steping on it a bit this is a MAX load with CFE-P and a 100gr bullet
No pressure signs but if you see any in .380 you are WAY over IMO.
String: 2
Date: 8/14/2016
Time: 9:23:07 AM
Grains: 100
Hi Vel: 862
Low Vel: 843
Ave Vel: 853
Ext Spread: 19
Std Dev: 7
380 100 Xtremer 4.0 CFE-P
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
862 77.58 148.477
843 75.87 142.004
855 76.95 146.075
850 76.5 144.372
856 77.04 146.417
(I thought it was funny this load had the same ES and SD as the factory Federal in the above post)
Hodgdon shows 955 fps with 4gr CFE-P and a 100 FMJ but they are not using a mouse gun with a 2.5" barrel

 

[kmw1954]

I have used the Ramshot Silhouette which if you look closely is almost identical to the True Blue in load data. I have also used the Berry's 100gr load data with 100gr .355/.356" Berry's, Xtreme and a Lee 102gr cast lead bullet and all have been pretty sweet. I keep it to within 1.4gr and haven't experienced and problems with it. So try some True Blue loads and see for yourself.

 

[1KPerDay]

My data is anecdotal but I used the same charges and OALs for rainier berrys and xtreme 124 plated RN bullets and they shot acceptably identically for me for my purposes. I don’t have a chronograph nor do I generally try to shoot tiny groups on paper.

for local informal practical matches and banging steel plates I couldn’t tell a difference. YMMV

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Seems like there’s no functional differences between the three manufacturers and either AA#2 or True Blue using Western data will work fine. Since no one has a reason not to, I’ll go ahead using those starting loads.
Thanks everybody!

 

[Zendude]

I’ve loaded all 3 of the brands and found the best powder charge was always the same for the same bullet weight and profile.