Random Muzzleloading Questions

[Mac Attack]

Miscellaneous questions related to muzzleloading:


Difference in Muzzleloading Powders?
I have seen Pyrodex, Goex, Triple 7, American Pioneer...etc. Also I have read about real blackpowder and blackpowder substitutes. What is the story and is one type more reliable or provide higher velocities than the other?

Difference between #11 caps and musket caps?
Is one inherently better than the other?

Nipple, how to tell which is which ... Old TC, TC Hot shot...etc.?
Is one better than the other?

Types of bullets - ball, conical, sabot, minnie balls, max-balls....etc?
What are the various types and does each type have a specific usage? Are conical/sabot's more accurate than balls?

For conical bullets, how can you determine the weigh without weighting? Do the different colors mean anything?
I have some hollowpoint conicals which have green bottoms.

 

[mykeal]

Random Answers

Difference in Muzzleloading Powders?
I have seen Pyrodex, Goex, Triple 7, American Pioneer...etc. Also I have read about real blackpowder and blackpowder substitutes. What is the story and is one type more reliable or provide higher velocities than the other?

There are two major categories: real black powder and synthetic (or substitute or replica) black powder. Real black powder is made from a very old recipe and is classified by BATFE as an explosive. It is sensitive to heat but not electricity or impact. There are two major brands generally available by mail order and rarely over the counter at specialty shops: Goex and Swiss. Synthetic black powders (Pyrodex, 777, American Pioneer, Goex Pinnacle, Jim Shockey's Gold, Black Mag 3 and others) are made from proprietary formulas and are not considered explosives by BATFE. They can be purchased over the counter at almost any outiftter or muzzleloading supply dealer and by mail order from many suppliers.

Substitute black powders usually have higher ignition temperatures than real black powder but are not necessarily more 'powerful'. They react differently to different weapons, projectiles and even weather conditions. About the only generalization one can make is that 777 is about 10 to 15% more powerful than real black powder; when using it one should REDUCE the charge 10 to 15% from the real black powder charge.

Opinions vary as to whether the substitute black powders are cleaner burning and/or easier to clean than real black powder. In my experience 777 is cleaner and easier to clean than any other powders, but many do not agree with me.

There are also many different opinions about reliability over either short or long term usage.

The best idea is to test your gun with different powders to see what it likes best. Be sure, however, to include real black powder if possible, as that is the standard against which all others are evaluated.

Difference between #11 caps and musket caps?
Is one inherently better than the other?

I'll answer the question you asked and then the one you think you asked:

Musket caps are significantly larger than #11 or #10 caps and require a musket cap nipple. They produce hotter sparks and significantly more sparks than the regular #10/11 percussion caps.

But I think you meant magnum caps; they are the same size as #11 caps but produce hotter sparks. As to whether they are better depends on several factors, but on balance they are slightly better and more reliable over a broader range of conditions.

Nipple, how to tell which is which ... Old TC, TC Hot shot...etc.?
Is one better than the other?

I've not used Hot Shots, so I can't say for sure. I believe they have a radial hole near the tip. Range reports suggest they are more reliable than regular nipples, but I've never tested them. I can say that Treso brand nipples produce a hotter and more reliable spark at the powder than regular nipples, and they last much longer.

Types of bullets - ball, conical, sabot, minnie balls, max-balls....etc?
What are the various types and does each type have a specific usage? Are conical/sabot's more accurate than balls?

This one could take a book.
Round balls: traditional projectile, reliable, predictable easy to use. superior accuracy over conicals/sabots in slow twist barrels. Excellent penetration, poor expansion. Require patching in rifles and single shot pistols.
Minie Balls: Bullet shaped ('conical') projectile used in Civil War. Effective if loaded properly but hard to load and keep straight. Patch often required, depends on design of the base. Some modern versions have expanding bases that do not require patches. Generally superior to round balls in fast twist barrels.
Sabot rounds: Also conical in shape, usually undersize wrt bore. Used with plastic sabot which engages the rifling to impart spin.
The above is a very rudimentary treatment of a complex subject. No good generalizations can be made as powder load, rifling, rate of twist and many other factors determine which is best for any given application. The good news is you get to do a lot of shooting at paper to figure out what's best for your gun.

For conical bullets, how can you determine the weigh without weighting? Do the different colors mean anything?
I have some hollowpoint conicals which have green bottoms.

There is no color code for weight except perhaps within a given manufacturer. Best bet: weigh them.

 

[Wildfire]

Green bottoms ?

Hey there:
The green bottoms sound like Power Belt bullets to me. If they have a small green plastic so called sabot on the bottom of the bullet, they are Power Belts.
Never could get them to shoot in my gun. You might.
Watch that the plastic does not come loose from that bullet. You end up with no bullet in the barrel or an obstruction in the barrel. This can happen with barrels that are a little on the loose side.
If your gun has a 1in 48" twist rate you may find that it will not shoot conicals very well. But handle round balls very nice. So do some don't.
If you choose the never clean your gun powders (Shocky Gold ,etc.)
clean your gun anyway. I have tested these powders and found poor accuracy from my guns. Pyrodex has given me the best accuracy of all powders out there. I am an accuracy nut and do not care about magnum loads. My guns will shoot extremely tight groups at 100 meters and that is what I am after. I also do care for the smell of the other powders. And I like all the white smoke. I only shoot the Encores now and they have much faster twist rates. Keep your nipple clean and dry and it will always fire. Ignore this and you will get a miss fire at a time when it may matter the most.
Loading , firing, cleaning, and just about anything you do with a BP gun is more of a ritual than some kind of speed shoot, wipe it off and put it away thing. You will enjoy it all. I have for more then 20 plus years now. I have very nice center fire rifles for deer hunting, but the muzzleloader is all I have used for many years now. Have fun

 

[Macmac]

mykeal , Most excellent answers... Mac

 

[John4me05]

Difference has been answered really well

Difference in the caps- I have been led to believe that a musket cap is a better source of ignition than a #11 simply for the volume of spark it puts on the powder

I believe the hotshot nipples were red in color

Accuracy would more than likely fall in thsi order
Ball, Conical, Sabot with sabot being the beeter in modern guns (but leaves some plastic fouling)

For the conicals i beleve as well you have Powerbelt bullets there...
The different colors on them denote the caliber (they are as near full caliber size as they can be i think)
Yellow is 45, green for 50, and red for 54... This saves headaches of stuffing a 45 in a 50 or a 50 in a 54...

 

[mykeal]

The different colors on them denote the caliber (they are as near full caliber size as they can be i think)
Yellow is 45, green for 50, and red for 54... This saves headaches of stuffing a 45 in a 50 or a 50 in a 54...

Yes, but that color scheme is limited to Powerbelts only.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm for real black powder..IT'S THE SMELL AND THE SMOKE MAN, ya gotta love the real, rotten egg, sulfer cloud floating through the air. It's so addicting. I gave up tobacco, but I can't give up BP smoke.

CH

 

[John4me05]

Yes, but that color scheme is limited to Powerbelts only.

Yes.. I should have stated that... Thanks

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks for the replies. I plan to shoot all the #11 caps I have and then switch to a Hot shot musket nipple. I have a few more questions:

Is there a difference between Powerbelts and Sabots?
How does one determine the thickness for patches when using ball ammo?
When you shoot your BP rifle/revolver, do you clean between shots?
After shooting, do I need to clean immediately or can I wait till I get home from the range?

 

[mykeal]

Mac Attack said:

Is there a difference between Powerbelts and Sabots?

Yes. Sabots are a (usually) plastic jacket that is separate from the bullet itself. You assemble the bullet into the sabot when loading. Powerbelts have the plastic already attached to the bullet - since it's not a separate piece the plastic isn't technically a sabot.

How does one determine the thickness for patches when using ball ammo?

Patch thickness must be enough that it makes up the difference between the bore size and the projectile diameter when folded around the projectile, plus enough to seal the grooves. I use .015 thick patches with a .490 round ball in a .50 cal rifle; the rifle measures .498 across the lands and .505 across the grooves. .490 plus twice .015 is .520, which is .015 oversize, or the thickness of the patch.

When you shoot your BP rifle/revolver, do you clean between shots?

I usually swab every 3 to 5 shots with a black powder solvent. Others swab after every shot, or not at all. Depends on many factors. Generally speaking you should swab often enough that you can still seat the ball. Your mileage will vary.

After shooting, do I need to clean immediately or can I wait till I get home from the range?

As a practical matter you can wait until you return home from the range, regardless of what powder you've been using. Some people, myself included, swab the bore with a bp solvent before leaving the range just to help soften up the fouling for the hot water. Rust begins forming immediately at a microscopic level and the post-shooting/pre-cleaning swab at the range reduces it. But in reality there isn't enough to matter unless you let the rifle sit for several days.

 

[Im283]

After shooting, do I need to clean immediately or can I wait till I get home from the range?

I am pretty sure you can wait until you get home, BP is corrosive but not so much you gun will deteriorate in a day or so. I have shot and not been able to clean for a day or two and nothing was hurt.

 

[Mac Attack]

In one of my other thread I asked about cleaning of BP rifle. For the most part people all agreed that hot water followed up with some sore of rust protector like Bore Butter. For between shot cleans do I still use just water or should I use #13 cleaner or some other natural solvent?

 

[Wildfire]

#13

Hey there:
#13 is a good BP solvent, I use it a lot. Easy to carry to the range.
I also use lube 1000. There are many others but this one always has worked for me and I see no reason to fix what aint broke.
I also use at least warm water and sometime a little dish soap. Nothing with Phosphates . If I spelled that right.
That stuff will tear the blue off and or blacken SS. Mild soaps are fine. But for the most part water kills the corrosive effects of the BP.
Dry it good and wipe every thing with the lube 1000 and you should not have a problem. If you find that after a week or so a hint of rust in the bore starts , You did not get the bore clean to start with. Lube it up good with the 1000. I use that stuff on all parts.
Be careful with trigger mech, if you hunt in very cold zones. Heavy lube can slow down you lock time and cause miss fires.
Some disagree but I have found that petro oils do not get along with the corrosive effects of BP. If you get it all out a petro oil would likely be OK. But if you do not get it all out petro oil only makes you think you are protected. Notice the word (IF).
I certianly don't want to start a lube war here. Some use the petro oils and are good to go. But they use their guns often and the problems do not have (time) to show up. Long term storage with petro oils is not recomended.
I work on guns and every year have guys bring me their Muzzleloaders just before deer season and want me to get the rust out.
They use everything from WD-40 to wolfs head oil. Most of the time they did not get that thing clean enough to start with.
Some learn some don't. As I said before get it clean and tend to it often and you will never have a problem.
It won't hurt anything to pull it out of the safe once a month and rub it down and dream about that next buck your going to slap with it.

 

[mykeal]

Yep. No. 13 or some other...

...including water.

 

[Pancho]

Between shots I prefer spit patches that is if i've got enough spit on range day.
The spit patch is as simple as it sounds. Place a patch on your tunge wet it good and swab your barrel. Run a dry patch and load and go.

 

[John4me05]

Is there a difference between Powerbelts and Sabots?
How does one determine the thickness for patches when using ball ammo?
When you shoot your BP rifle/revolver, do you clean between shots?
After shooting, do I need to clean immediately or can I wait till I get home from the range?

1 For me there is a huge difference... Powerbelts have been way more accurate in my uses.. Leave almost no plastic fouling... And since they are just a tad under caliber size they hit much harder and are a dream to load... The just under caliber size means you are shooting a larger diameter bullet... And i can load round after round with jsut 1 finger on the rod, no short starter even needed...
Now my set up includes Triple 7 pelets (inline) and the powerbelt... Triple 7 cleans up with just spit or water... The plastic base on the powerbelt swells at ignition to for a gas seal and thats about all.. The bullet itself engages the rifleing... And its much simpler to jsut grab a bullet and load than to fumble with putting the bullet in the sabot (they will fall out alot of times) and they lead to better accuracy in my useage...

2 When i shoot balls i get a pack of prelubed patches for my caliber size... Much more convienient when someone else has done the "elbow" work... If you want to be more traditional i dont have a answer

3 With my set up (trip 7 and powerbelts) i usually go 5 rounds or more without a patch... When i do clean its 2 or 3 damp patches followed up by 2 dry patches... Then fire a cap off to "foul" the barrel and dry any moisture in the barrel...

4 No you can wait til you get home.. When i use my sidelocks i dismantle the gun and remove the nipple... Run hot soapy water with some bore cleaner poured into it into a 5 galon bucket... Drop the cap end into the bucket and stick a bore mo into the barrel... When i draw the mop back up the bore it sucks water into the barrel by vaccum.. DO this 15-20 times... Then i change to just hot water in the bucket... I watch the water comming out of the nipple hole til it is as clear as it went in.. I then change to a brush with a patch wrapped around it (to create a vaccum and to brush the bore at the same time)... After its done ill store it muzzle down standing verticle and use them canisters of keyboard cleaning compressed air to blow into the nipple area... After 2-3 or 4 hours ill start running dry patches through the gun til they come out dry.. Use breach plug grease on the nipple threads (just a tiny bit) insert the nippleremove the side screw (flash hole) and lightly oil it with a Qtip) put a bit of breah plug grease on the screw and re-insert... Then oil the barrel with a patch.. Oil the outside of the gun with a Remoil wipe (all metal parts) and reassemble the gun...
For a inline just clean like a bolt action rifle and put breach plug grease on the breach plug before reassembly...

Here is a trick to those who read this... If you want your guns to stay nice looking and the scope as well before you shoot rub some dish soap on your finger tips and run the bottom and lower sides of the scope with this on your fingers... When you clean the gun use damp rags or wetwipes to rub the scope with and it will remove all the sooty look as well as the soap...

This trick also works great if you cook over open fires outdoors camping.. Just rub the outside of your pots and pans (dont have to do black ones though) and clean up is just wiping it off when you wash.. No scrubbing

 

[Pancho]

I like what John said about first using manufactured patches for round ball shooting. If the rifle shoots to your expectations with precut or precut/prelubed patches great just enjoy the gun but if it doesn't don't give up and hang the gun on the wall. You now can enter the world of reading spent patches and trying different patch thicknesses to obtain the accuracy you require. You don't want to go there if you don't have to