TC Renegade 1/48 Problems.

[JoeTheDeer]

This is a continuation of the other thread.

I have an accuracy problem with my TC Renegade probably caused by storing the gun without cleaning it. I am shooting over 12 inch groups with sabots at 100 yards. The barrel is 1 in 48 twist.

I have always shot conicals in it and over the years the accuracy reduced and I switched to saboted pistol bullets. Lately even the sabots are not working well.

For testing bullets I am shooting 70 grains of Hogden Pyrodex at 50 yards.
3 bullet groups.

Hornady 300 grain 45 xtp, high pressure sabot. 3 inch group high right.
Hornady 300 grain 44 xtp, high pressure sabot, off the paper, sideways.
Hornady 385 great plains, 10 inch group.
Hornady 450 great plains, 13 inch group.
TC Maxi Hunter 385 grain, 9 inches.
TC Maxi Hunter 450 grain, 13 inches.
Hornady PA Conical .512 240 grains, 7 inch group, 11 inch group.
friends home cast balls with patch, 13 inch group.
friends home cast conical about 400 grain with sabot, 3 inch high right.
TC sabot with 185 grain copper 45 .451 match pistol bullet, 3 inch high r.
TC round ball w TC .15 patch, 2 shots high r and one 11 inches away.

Questions??

Do you think a tighter patch would make the TC balls group tighter?
Do you think a larger bullet .452 .453 etc would make the TC sabots group better?
Do you think an all lead bullet in a sabot would perform better that a copper clad bullet in a sabot?

I am assume the 3 high right groups is where the gun shoots when it works.

Any suggestions for good loads?

Thnks. Joe.

 

[J-Bar]

After you start the projectile into the muzzle, can you push it all the way down smoothly, or does it feel herky-jerky, like it is hitting wide spots and narrow spots?

If the latter, there may be areas in the barrel that have been severly damaged by corrosion enough to widen the bore diameter. Or there may still be some deep seated accumulations of plastic crud from the sabots. Once the projectile engages the rifling, it should seat down relatively smoothly.

It may simply be that the barrel is shot out.

 

[mykeal]

What caliber is the barrel?

 

[JoeTheDeer]

50 cal. I am shooting 45 caliber in 50 caliber sabots.

The first 5 inches are very hard to get thru and then it loosens way up. The smaller bullets seem to almost drop in a clean barrel but the sabots push down with effort. It is not herky jerky but same all the way down. Small bullets seem too easy but tight ones take force.

I don't think it has plastic inside. Thoroughly cleaned.

 

[PapaG]

First off, I must state that I am a bit of a luddite when it comes to muzzle loaders. I have three Renegades, a fifty, a fifty-four and a fifty-eight. One I got new, the others were used(abused). A rough bore creates accuracy problems, especially with patched round balls. All the original Renegades used what I call a compromise twist. Should have had something in the order of 1 in 60 to 1 in 72 for roundballs (as you go up in caliber). For conicals (the maxiball was all we had back then) something around 1 in 36 or down to 1 in 28 would have been best. That said, I got the best accuracy out of my 54 with round balls (.535 and .008 linen) ahead of 100 grains of DuPont FFg. Maxiballs (440 grain) also grouped pretty well with 100 grains. The fifty took a little more powder, the 58 worked best with 90 and the semiwadcutter minieball (575424, I believe). I have not shot any of them with substitute powder. I have used the subs in inlines fairly extensively, beginning with Pyrodex in the early 70's before it was reformulated (originally had to be seated to really uniform pressure).
Now, after all my drivel, what I think your gun needs is the following:
A. Get some Brownells bore lapping paste and using a tight patch on a jag, lap the hell out of the bore. Get the rough spots gone. Extra fine valve grinding compound might help if it is too rough for the paste.
B. See if you can get some real black powder and some lubricated maxi balls or maxi hunters and try them. I have a heck of a time reloading after even one shot using triple7 or pyrodex and plastic sabots. I don't like to clean between shots when hunting and believe a fouled bore is more consistent shot to shot if the fouling can be kept consistent. Minies, if you can find them in your caliber, were designed to scrape out fouling on their way out (check the shape of the grooves on a true minie) while having the base expand to seal the bore when fired.
If recovered patches show burnthrough, they are not tight enough. If they are fuzzed and shredded where the ball contacts the lands/grooves through the patch, you have a rough bore. Lap it, clean it and do it again. And again. I've brought several guns back from failure this way, two Cherokees, two Renegades, and one original Henry Leman. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and get a new barrel. Green Mountain made some wonderful ones in various twists. Few guns shoot equally well with patched round balls and conicals.
You might want to start with a patch or two soaked in acetone to remove plastic fouling, which often you cannot see. I clean my trap gun at the end of the season with a mix of Butch's bore shine and Kroil on a patch of scotchbrite and that is after the regular cleaning....much plastic fouling comes out of what seems to be a shiny bore.

 

[BADUNAME30]

Joe, you can get a good look at your bore by taking a .38 or 9 silly meter case, shine up the head and drop it down the Bbl head up. When you shine yer light down there your bore will light right up and you can get a real good look at it.
Then, do what PapaG said.
A well equipped gun store in yer neck will have J-B compound and that'll save ya the price and shipping from Brownell's.
( i been suspectin plastic buildup all along )

 

[arcticap]

This is a continuation of the other thread.

Here's the other thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=681292

Do you think a tighter patch would make the TC balls group tighter?

Some folks get really good accuracy when they use a very tight patched ball combination. But getting the ball started may require tapping it down with a mallet.

Do you think a larger bullet .452 .453 etc would make the TC sabots group better?

A bullet that's a little heavier or slightly larger in diameter could work. The extra weight and length may make more of a difference than the diameter. It would be worth trying a 200 - 240 grain bullet to judge the difference.
Those TC sabots have shown promise and must have shot better for a reason. It could have been due to the smaller 185 grain bullet or to the looser fitting sabot, or both.
And I would also try adding 10 more grains of powder when testing with those sabots to see if it helps or hurts accuracy any.

Do you think an all lead bullet in a sabot would perform better that a copper clad bullet in a sabot?

There's really nothing wrong with an all lead bullet but some bullets are better than others when it comes to performance on the deer. A jacketed bullet will probably perform better than an all lead bullet of the same weight. But some lead conicals will work just fine in a sabot.

 

[frontiergander]

sabots arent really the best choice for the 1:48 twist. I'd suggest something like the 295gr powerbelt with 80 to 90 grains pyrodex rs. My renegade loved that load.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

Still Working

I am cleaning up the gun real good to get a look down the barrel today.

I am looking into what I can find at home in .452 bullets. Those xtp bullets they sell in sabots may be .452 diameter, not sure. I have a micrometer somewhere at home.

Looking for patches too, maybe later. Tomorrow will be a disaster at local range.

I am considering lapping compond and powerbelts too but have to watch money.

I have 6 or so 50 cal miniballs from a friend who casts. I can try those but have my doubts.

 

[gl1200a]

"I have always shot conicals in it and over the years the accuracy reduced and I switched to saboted pistol bullets."

Probably leaded barrel.

 

[frontiergander]

Leaded bore or something ive always over looked... A loose screw that holds the tang on.

 

[todayshighlights]

Just making sure...

You are using .45 bullets, but make sure your sabots are for .45 bullets also. If they are .44 plastic sabots, that could make for a tight fit.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

I am using 45 sabots but the idea did occur to use a 44 with a 45 bullet because tight bullets work better in this gun. I also thought of getting some 454 lead bullets and try one of those in a 45 sabot. My sabots are for 50 caliber but hold 45 bullets just to be clear. I Have a box of hornady sabots for my 50 that hold a 44 cal xtp pistol but these are unstable when shot. They flip and bounce into the target if I am lucky.

I took my renegade to my gunsmith to examine the bore and he says it looks okay except for a very small amount of black coming off the surface metal. He said it looks smooth and not pitted nor rusted. He actually suggested I use more powder, 90 to 100 grains.

I am now looking for some .452 bullets at 300 grains in lead or copper to see how they shoot in my TC yellow sabots.

I also want to try using two patches on those TC balls I have to see if that tighter fits works. I had two of the three shots hit together when I shot them with one flier.

The .454 would be a .002 jump over what TC recommended for their sabots. This seems reasonable. The 44 sabot with a 45 bullet would be a .011 jump probably a little too large.

And ideas on a tight fit.

Joe.

 

[ironhead7544]

You might want to try one of the old style hollow base Minie balls. Could take the rifling better.

I would just get a new barrel with round ball twist.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

The tough thing about BP accuracy is the varying state of the bore from shot to shot. BP fouling steadily builds up with most serious loads and accuracy deteriorates as it does. If the load is chosen carefully, it's possible for the bore to stabilize long enough to achieve useful accuracy over a string of shots.

My approach is to start with the bore as clean and dry as possible and shoot 80-90 grain loads of Pyrodex RS. The bore seems to reach a steady-state where the first 5 to 7 shots from the clean barrel will group. Beyond that, I get erratic accuracy much like you experienced. At that point, cleaning of some nature is in order.

I've never found that wiping between shots helped very much. It seemed like it introduced another variable. Accuracy was never as good to begin with and it deteriorated at about the same rate. Maybe I wasn't doing it right, as others swear by it. Even cleaning at the range has never brought the bore back to a consistent starting point for me.

One thing that does help during range trips where plenty of shooting is anticipated is to alternate the full power hunting loads with some very low power Patched Round Ball loads. I'll shoot a 5 to 7 shot group from a clean, dry barrel using 90 grains of powder. Then, before accuracy gets nasty, I'll switch to a light plinking load using 30 grains of Pyrodex P behind a PRB. Loading the PRB clears away much of the fouling from the heavier loads and the light loads of P burn very clean. Once the PRBs are hitting consistently, I'll switch back to the full power loads and shoot another group. Accuracy and zero will be very close to where they were from a dry barrel.

If you're trying to shoot several groups using hunting loads and different projectiles in a single range session, I'm not surprised you're having accuracy problems.

One other tip: I've gotten my most consistent accuracy with hunting loads using patched round balls. Sabots and conicals may work fine one day but not the next. The PRBs are always there for me.

FWIW

 

[Curator]

Joethedeer,

Your approach to muzzle loading accuracy needs a bit more scientific focus. Shooting multiple projectiles with the same load of propellent won't tell you much. Usually you will need to slowly work up a load for a specific bullet at 5 or 10 grains at a time, finding the "sweet spot." Also, sabots may not be the best projectile in your Renegade with 1 in 48" twist. Smaller diameter bullets need more twist than larger ones. Longer bullets need more twist than shorter ones. A 50 caliber bullet .75 inches in length will properly stabilize in a 1 in 48" twist but that same bullet in .45 caliber will need a twist rate of 1 in 37" so some of your problem is from this. Forget sabots unless using .45 caliber slugs less than .60 inches in length.

Actually there is no advantage to using sub-caliber bullets in a .50 caliber rifle. Work with those Maxi balls (not longer than .75") or Power belt bullets and start with 60 grains of FFFg (or equivalent) shoot a group wiping the bore with a damp patch after each shot. Then move to 65 grains and shoot another group. Keep doing this until you finds the powder charge that works best for your gun and bullet combination. Maxi-balls, Maxi-hunter, and Lee R.E.A.L. bullets all shoot better with a thick wad under them--try that too.

 

[arcticap]

Actually there is no advantage to using sub-caliber bullets in a .50 caliber rifle.

I disagree. There's the advantage provided by the increased sectional density of a sub-caliber bullet which translates into greater penetration.
That doesn't hold true for every sub-caliber bullet. But for instance, it does for a 240 grain .44 or .45 caliber bullet verses a 240 grain .50 caliber bullet.
The smaller caliber bullets of equal weight will have a greater sectional density which will usually result in greater penetration, which means a greater liklihood of a pass through shot and easier tracking of large game animals.
That's not to say that the accuracy of a sub-caliber bullet will always be better or acceptable. However that's something that needs to be experimented with and compared to all of the other projectiles being tested and considered.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

I am very upset by all this. I am swapping out the scope today to see if that is the cause. Of course I should have tried the iron sights already. Maybe I will.

I usually only shoot about 6 times each visit to the range. Cleaning with a dry patch before the next shot. If I don't clean each time the next bullet is v hard to seat.

If the scope swap doesn't work I will try something else. I am thinking the seal/wad behind the bullet would help.

Yesterday I put two patches on my round balls. Beside being hard to seat they shot about a 14 inch group using three shots.

I switched to 1 patch and shot a 12 inch group.

All at 50 yards and 90 grains of pyro.

 

[BADUNAME30]

Joe,do yourself and your gun a favor and start using Bore Butter in yer Bbl.
It will beome 'seasoned' and you will see a noticable difference in ease of bullet seating, accuracy and ease of cleaning.