Range Day Results - Can anyone critique/diagnose my DA shooting

[guitarguy314]

I went to the range today. I'm trying to become more accurate with my shooting. I decided to work on DA shooting today. The target below is my best 12 shot run with my S&W 25-9 in 45 Colt. Shooting done with two hand hold from 7 yards. Can anyone give me any tips, or tell me what I need to work on based on the target provided?

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[MrBorland]

Shooting better and shooting a revolver DA are two of my favorite topics. Did you already go through this current, but lengthy thread on the matter?:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=753339

It's a lot to digest, but there's a lot of good stuff in there.

 

[guitarguy314]

I haven't been through that thread yet. So far I've gone through Ed McGivern's book, Bob Nichol's book, several Ayoob articles, A police shooting video from the..50's maybe, and a few Miculek videos.

I'll give that thread a look. Thanks.

 

[MrBorland]

One of the biggest issues I see when people are trying to shoot DA is trigger control. Some feel the distance the DA trigger has to travel is something to be gotten past as soon as possible. So, they see a sight picture, then yank that trigger. Others pull the trigger to a point just before the shot breaks, then stop, re-aquire a sight picture, then yank the trigger when all looks ok. Both amount to just taking pot shots.

Just establish a good sight picture, and, while watching the front sight, stroke the DA trigger straight back smoothly through the break. If your sight picture was good to begin with, and your stroke is smooth, the sight picture will still be good when the shot breaks.

Things such as grip and finger placement matter, in that they help or hurt your trigger control.

My contribution to that thread I pasted can be summarized as such: The fundamentals are sight picture and trigger control. Focus on the process of executing the fundamentals well, and the goal of a tight group will take care of itself. The target's merely a recording device that makes a hard copy of how well you executed the fundamentals. You can take the target home and hang it on your refrigerator, but when you're shooting, there's little about it that helps you execute the shot well, so put you mental efforts into the process of a good shot, not the goal.

 

[il.bill]

...
Just establish a good sight picture, and, while watching the front sight, stroke the DA trigger straight back smoothly through the break. If your sight picture was good to begin with, and your stroke is smooth, the sight picture will still be good when the shot breaks.

... The fundamentals are sight picture and trigger control. Focus on the process of executing the fundamentals well, and the goal of a tight group will take care of itself. The target's merely a recording device that makes a hard copy of how well you executed the fundamentals. You can take the target home and hang it on your refrigerator, but when you're shooting, there's little about it that helps you execute the shot well, so put you mental efforts into the process of a good shot, not the goal.

Nicely stated - thanks!

 

[guitarguy314]

Thanks for the tips Mr. Borland.

 

[MrBorland]

I should've asked - What is it you're trying to achieve with your DA skills? Pure accuracy? "Combat" accuracy? Is there an element of time involved? IOW, are you trying for the smallest groups possible with no particular time constraints, or are you trying to just keep them in the black while shooting as quickly as possible?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Just establish a good sight picture, and, while watching the front sight, stroke the DA trigger straight back smoothly through the break. If your sight picture was good to begin with, and your stroke is smooth, the sight picture will still be good when the shot breaks.

Mr. Borland you make it seem so easy even a caveman could do it.

 

[BSA1]

Just establish a good sight picture, and, while watching the front sight, stroke the DA trigger straight back smoothly through the break. If your sight picture was good to begin with, and your stroke is smooth, the sight picture will still be good when the shot breaks

Yep! Front sight, front sight, front sight.

You need to hone your proper sight alignment skills. This is easily accomplished at home by dry firing your handgun. I assume you know that the proper sight picture is equal distance on both sides of the front sight and the rear sight and the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight blade.

The exercise is very simple. Pick a spot on the wall. I use a white wall so I can clearly see that I have the proper sight picture. Then I slowly and smoothly pull the trigger through focusing on the front sight without disturbing the sight alignment. Repeat, repeat, repeat until the front sight remains steady.

This exercise should be repeated daily until you can hold the sight picture perfectly. After I have mastered keeping the sight alignment perfect I then work on picking up speed. Until you master your sight alignment by dry firing you are wasting live ammunition and reinforcing bad skills on the range.

 

[9mmepiphany]

At 7 yards, your trigger control will be more important than sight alignment...not to be taken as meaning you can ignore your sight alignment.

As MrBorland posted, it is important to establish what you are trying to accomplish. That would affect how you should be gripping, managing the trigger, and seeing the sights.

The constant will always be a smooth, constant, and straight to the rear trigger press

 

[guitarguy314]

BSA1. Thanks for that dry firing tip. I never know what a good dry fire is supposed to look like. Your tip helps a lot.

Mr. Borland - At this point, I'd like to get the best groups possible without worrying about time. I'd especially like to be able to call my shots.

 

[Psyphertext]

I had huge problems with DA trigger pull. I discovered that I tightened my grip, when I fought that I caught myself squeezing my pinky finger or ring finger.

 

[BSA1]

At 7 yards, your trigger control will be more important than sight alignment...not to be taken as meaning you can ignore your sight alignment.

As MrBorland posted, it is important to establish what you are trying to accomplish. That would affect how you should be gripping, managing the trigger, and seeing the sights.

The constant will always be a smooth, constant, and straight to the rear trigger press

Looking at the O.P.'s target I disagree in part with your comment that trigger pull is more important than sight alignment. It has been proven many, many times over (even occasionally by myself ) that improper sight picture will result in misses even at close range.

However the key to maintaining proper sight alignment is a smooth, constant trigger pull so they both go hand in hand. However the sights must be properly aligned for the bullet to hit it's intended mark.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Looking at the O.P.'s target I disagree in part with your comment that trigger pull is more important than sight alignment. It has been proven many, many times over (even occasionally by myself ) that improper sight picture will result in misses even at close range.

However the key to maintaining proper sight alignment is a smooth, constant trigger pull so they both go hand in hand. However the sights must be properly aligned for the bullet to hit it's intended mark.

I used to believe that also, until I was shown to be mistaken during a recent class with Ben Stoeger. (USPSA Production champion)

At 7 yards, shooting a 9mm CZ, he demonstrated the difference in POI between holding the front blade completely over to opposite sides of the rear notch was only about 1"

I've taken instruction from both Mickey Fowler and Bruce Gray and they both agree that accurate shooting is primarily a function of trigger management...as long as your front blade is within the delineations of the rear notch; conscious vertical alignment being more important than lateral alignment.

YMMV, but that is what I have observed

 

[Old Fuff]

Once upon a time in the dark past of the last (20th) century I used to play the Olympic Rapid Fire game. Therein one had to hit the center of 5 silhouette targets with a .22 pistol in a time frame of 8, 6 and 4 seconds. Most of the challenge was in the last string, not because it was so hard to shoot, but rather to move from target to target in the short time.

Anyway, one of our champion competitors clued me in concerning my rear sight notch being too narrow. He proposed that the notch should be wide enough so that if the front sight blade was held against the side of the notch the white strip on the other side should be at least equal to the width of the blade or a bit more so. When the blade was centered the white area on each side by usual standards was generously wide – which I thought would result in oversized groups.

It didn’t. I found that my eye would naturally center the blade, and the wider notch made little or no negative difference. On the other hand a too-narrow rear sight notch would slow my performance because it was more difficult the see the white on each side of the blade, and I actually slowed down while trying to find the perfect sight picture.

The handful of truly accomplished double-action shooter I have known generally prefered Smith & Wesson revolvers with absolutely smooth (but not necessarily light) trigger pulls. When they started to put pressure on the trigger fingerpiece they pulled it straight through without hesitation. They paid no particular attention to the pull, but focused their attention on aligning the sights.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I found that my eye would naturally center the blade, and the wider notch made little or no negative difference. On the other hand a too-narrow rear sight notch would slow my performance because it was more difficult the see the white on each side of the blade, and I actually slowed down while trying to find the perfect sight picture.

I learned that when learning to shoot faster (4+ shots/second)

Granted the person who taught me learned it in Olympic Pistol training...I think his specialty was Air Pistol;so his follow through was flawless.

What you are doing is trusting your subconscious to balance the light on either side of the front sight blade. What really helped was no longer trying to see the sights as aligned, but learning to let the subconscious perceive them when they were aligned without conscious recognition

The handful of truly accomplished double-action shooter I have known...paid no particular attention to the pull, but focused their attention on aligning the sights.

Interesting, the ones I have known focus on getting the aligned sights on the next target before their sear releases the hammer for the next shot. There isn't any waiting for the sights to align, it is a race between getting the sights onto target and the hammer falling..

But then speed shooting revolvers is quite a different game

 

[MrBorland]

Just establish a good sight picture, and, while watching the front sight, stroke the DA trigger straight back smoothly through the break. If your sight picture was good to begin with, and your stroke is smooth, the sight picture will still be good when the shot breaks.

Mr. Borland you make it seem so easy even a caveman could do it.

Yeah, shooting well is easy - in theory. Actually doing is a 'nuther matter.

The handful of truly accomplished double-action shooter I have known generally prefered Smith & Wesson revolvers with absolutely smooth (but not necessarily light) trigger pulls. When they started to put pressure on the trigger fingerpiece they pulled it straight through without hesitation. They paid no particular attention to the pull, but focused their attention on aligning the sights.

Likely they paid no conscious attention to the pull.

When talking match accuracy, there's no doubt trigger control and sight picture are critical. But one can't consciously focus on 2 things simultaneously, so good shooters, though practice, have developed a good subconscious trigger pull, which frees them up to maintain a good conscious focus on sight picture.

 

[Master Blaster]

Ball and dummy drill will help reveal what you are doing on the range with live fire.

Load 2 cylinder charge holes with live ammo at random ( skip a couple holes) Load the other four with fired cases. Without looking spin and gently close the cylinder. Now you will not know when you will hit a live round or a dummy round.

When you hit the dummy rounds you will see if you are anticipating, flinching, or thumbing...

 

[mikemyers]

I'll probably get a lot of flack for posting this here, but this is a (slightly edited) copy of an email I just sent to a relative of mine half an hour ago. It's a bit exaggerated, but it's a GREATLY simplified representation of my thoughts, after lots of people here have been helping me improve my own DA shooting:

I’ve changed my mind about things. Maybe I should rather say I’ve changed my priorities regarding slow-fire target shooting.

I no longer think it will make much difference in bullseye shooting how you stand, what stance, etc. If someone picks a stance that’s not stable, it will detract from their shooting ability, but I no longer think it’s that big of a deal. My thoughts about you (this is to the person I sent the email to, not the OP), I don’t think it matters if you stand the way you want to, do or don’t cock your head to the side, face the target or otherwise…. On an “importance scale” of 1 to 10, I guess I would call all this a “2”. People can and will do as they wish. I used to think this was so important. Not any more.

For that matter, I also no longer think it’s that big a deal what grip they use, as long as the grip is adequate to hold the gun steady, and fingers aren’t pressing the gun one way or another. I guess I’m saying I no longer think it matters that much “how” someone holds a gun, (other than that they might do something to move the gun one way or another as they fire it, which I think is part of trigger pull). I guess I’d call “grip” a “2” as well.

That leaves two things, the sights, and the trigger pull. I guess I’d also call “the sights” a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10, as if the trigger motion is done correctly, the bullet should go where the sights are lined up at the moment the bullet leaves the barrel. If the sights are still aimed at a spot six inches from the bullseye, that’s where the holes should go, not some random pattern, that makes the target look like shotgun shooting.

Only one thing left, and on a scale of 1 to 10, I’d like to give that a value well beyond 10 – trigger push/pull. None of the other things I know of matter at all, if the trigger action isn’t good. On the other hand, if the trigger pull is perfect, then the holes should all go into the same part of the target, wherever that might be.


I now think people should still learn “the fundamentals”, but trigger pull counts more than all the rest added up together. What happens to the gun AS the trigger is pulled/pushed and the bullet leaves the barrel…. get that right, and everything else will take care of itself. Personal opinion.


Jerking the trigger… flinching…. Thumbs pushing the gun to the side… the hand clenching as the trigger is pulled – all of that is part of “trigger pull”. ……in my opinion.
​

I think reading the discussion Mr. Borland linked to, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=753339 would be a big help to anyone wishing to shoot DA. I know all the feedback made a huge difference to me, in SO many ways.

Gee..... I sent that email to a relative, with no idea I would ever post it anywhere...... and it's not written in a "finished" way, just something that represents how I feel about these things now, which is very different from several months ago.....

 

[mikemyers]

Follow-up to the previous response...... if you want to get better, spend some time every day practicing dry-fire, over and over and over and over. When you go to the range, your fingers will be so used to doing things correctly, that they'll try to do so automatically. Do that for at least half an hour, at least once a day every day. It's "free".

 

[MrBorland]

At 7 yards, shooting a 9mm CZ, he demonstrated the difference in POI between holding the front blade completely over to opposite sides of the rear notch was only about 1"

Out of curiosity, I measure the sight radius as well as the front and rear sights on my M&P, and did a quick measurement to confirm this. Yep, 'tis true. Couple of points for those shooting for tightest groups, though:

First, it's still an unnecessary 1" (technically it'd be closer to half an inch with a mathematically perfect shot release) at 7 yards, and roughly double that at 15. If you're working hard to improve your 15 yard groups, getting even an inch improvement is a hard won effort. Misaligning the front sight even a quarter of the way towards the rear notch will cost you an inch or more at 50 yards, which would be a big deal for bullseye shooters.

Second, as 9mmepiphany points out, it really underscores the importance of trigger control*. If your gun and ammo are reasonably accurate, it ought to be capable of a half inch at 15 yards. Add in a little sight mis-alignment (say the aforementioned quarter of the way towards the rear notch) and an inch and a half hold, and your groups ought to be just a little more than an inch and a half. Now look at your target. How big's your group? Bigger than an inch and a half? The difference is your trigger control.

This is not to say sight alignment's not necessary for good shooting. It is. But the low-hanging fruit is trigger control. Do your best to align the sights and improve your hold, but if you've got a decent gun and ammo with a decent trigger and sights, and you're working towards good fundamental marksmanship, work first on trigger control.


* The center of an USPSA and IDPA target is a whopping 6 - 8". Get your hit in there, and you get full credit for the shot. Yet, it's quite common to hit outside this area, so it underscores the importance of not just trigger control, but seeing what you need to see when you break the shot (especially when shooting quickly). Good USPSA/IDPA shooters know the best match performance comes from balancing speed and accuracy, so they don't mind some hits outside the 6 - 8" center, but many loose too much time to bad shots because they don't really see the 6-8" center, but merely the larger 24" tan target.

 

[smkummer]

The above group would have been in the hit zone (except maybe on shot) of the human silhouette target that we shoot for semi annual requal and that is at 7 yards with a DOA semi 40 cal.. Again as stated, its what you are trying to achieve. We have to draw and fire 3 rounds in 4 seconds. It 7 yards, one still needs to concentrate on the front sight and follow through. I would use some snap caps and dry fire to see if the sight is staying on target after the hammer drops. Again, your group does qualify on our course. I prefer the original positive lock Colts (Python, Officers model and original trooper) for DA shooting as they stack (get heavy prior to trigger break) so its really easy to pull until the weight and then squeeze the last part for a accurate shot. I don't get the same feel with a MKIII Colt or King Cobra.

 

[murf]

what are you aiming at when you shoot? is it the big black circle, the little black circle, the little red circle?

are you focusing on your front sight, or the target when you pull the trigger?

murf

 

[RustyShackelford]

SIG Sauer Academy; breathing....

The big point with handgun shooting to me is slight alignment & breathing.
Slow down, get a good sight picture(use the sights), breath in, exhale, then pull the trigger.
I saw a few recent video tips from SIG Sauer's senior instructor. He keeps it basic & simple. I don't remember all the terms he used but his premise was sound. In short he advises maintaining control & consistency with the barrel/muzzle and pulling the trigger. The videos may be here; www.sigsauer.com . I get company emails from them so that's how I saw it.

Rusty

 

[guitarguy314]

Thanks for the tips and info guys. I really appreciate it.
Murf: I'm aiming at the little black circle in the middle of the big target.