range limit for the m1 garand?

[GarandMan94]

Ive hit steel silhouette targets center mass at 800 yards with my springfield armory standard issue, with a spotter i can do the same at 1000 yards. At 1100 i get on target with 18/24 shots at 1200 11/24 shots.
For gigles I tried at 1500yds the maximum distance at the range and i hit the target 2/24 shots

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The Garand is not a super accurate rifle -- no military rifle over 50 years old is. That being said, the Garand has, as one writer put it, "the best iron sights ever put on a military rifle."

I'm not at all surprised at a reasonable hit probability at 800 to 1000 yards.

 

[adcoch1]

The Garand is not a super accurate rifle -- no military rifle over 50 years old is. That being said, the Garand has, as one writer put it, "the best iron sights ever put on a military rifle."

I'm not at all surprised at a reasonable hit probability at 800 to 1000 yards.

The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[Reloadron]

adcoch1 mentions:

The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

The Rifle, .303 Pattern 1914 (or P14) was a British service rifle of the First World War period. A bolt action weapon with an integral 5-round magazine, it was principally contract manufactured by companies in the United States. It served as a sniper rifle and as second line and reserve issue until being declared obsolete in 1947. The P14 was the successor to the P13 Enfield and the predecessor of the U.S. Rifle M1917 Enfield.

The P14 was a .303 Pattern rifle and the US Rifle of 1917 was the M1917. While the rifle is frequently refered to as a P14 I do not think that is correct as a point of trivia. The correct reference should be M1917 Enfield. That is how it is listed in U.S. Infantry Weapons World War II by Bruce N. Canfield.

Ron

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The 1917 eddystone (p14 Enfield, us military configuration) i used to have would easily hit a ten inch target at 750-800 with greek ammo. I managed a cold bore hit on a 4" target at that range. And my uncle's cmp garand will easily drill a clay pigeon on the hill at 200. Like every time. That's easily 2moa or better. I wouldn't say any military rifle over 50 yrs old isn't Very accurate. In fact all of the 7mm mausers i've shot were better than 2moa guns as well. I think the SHOOTER isn't what he used to be since semi auto has become the norm. I would believe that any good condition m1 should be good to 600 at least. My $0.02.

The M1917 was the first US rifle to have decent aperture sights -- albeit without windage adjustment.

 

[Nature Boy]

Lazarus was only raised from the dead once, however, this thread......

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Let's apply a little logic to the question.

The Army acceptance standard for the M1 Garand was 3-4 MOA. Assume 3.5 MOA for an issue rifle, i.e., approximately 15" at 400 yards. How wide is the average stiff today? How wide was said stiff in the 1940s? Assuming you could knock a human target down at greater than 400 yards, from a good field position or rest, would be somewhat aggressive. That a .30-06 round with a 150gr bullet could kill at 875 yards is less interesting than one's inability to reliably hit a human target at more than 400-440 yards with an issue M1, as specified by the army.

Harry, long-time M1 Garand shooter

PS-BTW, I've done my share of shooting, and unfortunately not great shooting at 600 yards with both M1s and M14s/(more recently my SAI M1A SuperMatch, built in 1978). Skills notwithstanding, the realities of these rifles coupled with human limitations, dictate expectations, regardless of stated expertise.

FH

 

[adcoch1]

adcoch1 mentions:





The P14 was a .303 Pattern rifle and the US Rifle of 1917 was the M1917. While the rifle is frequently refered to as a P14 I do not think that is correct as a point of trivia. The correct reference should be M1917 Enfield. That is how it is listed in U.S. Infantry Weapons World War II by Bruce N. Canfield.

Ron

Once again i bow to your historical accuracy RON, Thank you for guiding my rant back to accurate terminology. I always just call them a 1917, but you're right, the p14 is a different rifle even though the two share the action design.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[lysanderxiii]

Let's apply a little logic to the question.

The Army acceptance standard for the M1 Garand was 3-4 MOA. Assume 3.5 MOA for an issue rifle, i.e., approximately 15" at 400 yards. How wide is the average stiff today? How wide was said stiff in the 1940s? Assuming you could knock a human target down at greater than 400 yards, from a good field position or rest, would be somewhat aggressive. That a .30-06 round with a 150gr bullet could kill at 875 yards is less interesting than one's inability to reliably hit a human target at more than 400-440 yards with an issue M1, as specified by the army.

Harry, long-time M1 Garand shooter

PS-BTW, I've done my share of shooting, and unfortunately not great shooting at 600 yards with both M1s and M14s/(more recently my SAI M1A SuperMatch, built in 1978). Skills notwithstanding, the realities of these rifles coupled with human limitations, dictate expectations, regardless of stated expertise.

FH

The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

So, just under 5.3 MOA.

 

[dh1633pm]

As poor of a shot as I am, I did a 300 yard match with my Garand at a central New York Gun Club. Mine is a rebuild with new barrel and stock. Came in third. From last. But you know, it was raining, I had never shot the course, and used reloads. Excuses, excuses. But all my shots were on the paper and scored 6 or better for each. It wasn't the rifle that came in near last, it was me. I did enjoy every minute of it.

 

[Sistema1927]

Lazarus was only raised from the dead once, however, this thread......

I was going to say: "We had a thread about this awhile back", but "deja vu all over again".

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

So, just under 5.3 MOA.

Not exactly -- the criteria is not pure accuracy, but mostly alignment of sights and point of impact.


And let me point out that the qualification course included 20 shots, slow fire prone at 600 yards.

 

[Onmilo]

The 30-06 cartridge is potentially lethal a lot farther away than one can reliably hit with an iron-sited Garand. Guesses in the 5-600 yard range are credible, much beyond that you can't see a man sized target in the field.

Two miles is 3,520 yards. Please.

I agree this is the maximum effective range of about all combat rifles given the variables that occur on every battlefield.
The difference is a .30/06 will hurt more than a 5.56/5.45 when it gets where it is going.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Not exactly -- the criteria is not pure accuracy, but mostly alignment of sights and point of impact.


And let me point out that the qualification course included 20 shots, slow fire prone at 600 yards.

Those are the only accuracy requirements stated in the specifications governing the production of the M1 Garand Rifle. They were only required to shoot just under 5.3 MOA.

As I recall, when the Army still qualified on the A-course, only 10 rounds were shot at each stage, and there were 5 stages, off-hand, kneeling, sitting, prone rapid and prone slow. Also the V-ring was 20 inches in diameter.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Those are the only accuracy requirements stated in the specifications governing the production of the M1 Garand Rifle. They were only required to shoot just under 5.3 MOA.

No. They were required to put all shots in a circle just under 5.3 MOA AT A GIVEN SIGHT SETTING.

So a rifle that shot a 5.3 MOA group WITH THAT SIGHT SETTING would meet the standard IF the group was centered.

A rifle that would shoot a 1/2 MOA group OUTSIDE the circle with that sight setting would fail.

 

[lysanderxiii]

No. They were required to put all shots in a circle just under 5.3 MOA AT A GIVEN SIGHT SETTING.

So a rifle that shot a 5.3 MOA group WITH THAT SIGHT SETTING would meet the standard IF the group was centered.

A rifle that would shoot a 1/2 MOA group OUTSIDE the circle with that sight setting would fail.

The maximum allowable spread is 5.3 MOA.

If the group (whatever size, but smaller than 5.3 inches) is outside the the sighting area, adjustments to the rifle are required, but the grouping is acceptable....

So, a rifle that is only capable of 5.3 MOA is acceptable, provided the sights are set up correctly.

Of course, anything better would also be acceptable.

3.8 Targeting. — The assembled rifle shall require no greater range of sight adjustment in targeting than is authorized in 4.8.

3.9 Accuracy.-The accuracy of each rifle shall be such that five successive shots fired at 100 yards shall fall on the target so as to group within or be cut by the size circle specified in 4.9.
.
.
.
4.8 Targeting firing tests.

4.8.1 At a range of 100 yards and using a fixed or muzzle- and elbow rest, each rifle of a lot shall be fired one series of five rounds of caliber .30 ball ammunition, of known accuracy, at a 5-inch bull’s eye or a “T" target.

4.8.1.1 With the rear sight set at zero windage, the aperture elevated eight clicks from the lowest position and the sights aligned at 6 o’clock on the target, all shots shall come within or cut the edge of the bull’s eye (or a centrally located 5-inch circle if a “T” target is used) or it shall be possible
to move the group within the bull’s eye (or circle) with not more than six clicks of adjustment, either up or down, right or left, or both.

4.8.1.2 In the event that more than three clicks of windage adjustment is required, a correction must be made by shifting the front sight, but the movement shall not cause overhanging on either side.

4.9 Accuracy firing test.
...The accuracy shall be such as to meet the corresponding requirements of the above paragraphs.

Paragraph 3.8 is a different requirement that paragraph 3.9, however, the two tests are done concurrently.

Para. 3.8 requires the sights to be set up so that less that 3 clicks windage and 6 clicks elevation are required to zero a new rifle at 100 yards (no wind), para. 3.9 requires all shots to be inside or cut a 5 inch circle, (that is, to have less than a 5.3 inch extreme spread).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by lysanderxiii:
The acceptance criteria for an M1 was with the rear sight windage centered and eight clicks up on the elevation, 5 rounds fired rounds at a target set at a range of 100 yards had to be inside, or cut, the 5 inch aiming circle.

4.8.1.1 With the rear sight set at zero windage, the aperture elevated eight clicks from the lowest position and the sights aligned at 6 o’clock on the target, all shots shall come within or cut the edge of the bull’s eye (or a centrally located 5-inch circle if a “T” target is used) or it shall be possible to move the group within the bull’s eye (or circle) with not more than six clicks of adjustment, either up or down, right or left, or both.

This standard is NOT a pure accuracy standard -- the standard relates to the correspondence of the sights to the point of impact.

Again, a rifle that shot a 1/2" group, but a foot to the left with the specified sight setting would FAIL. A rifle that centered a 5" group would pass.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Vern,

At the risk of noting the obvious, were your statement true, an inspector would take an Allen wrench, loosen the front sight screw, tap the front sight in the direction of the off-center POI to center the 1/2" group with the windage set at mechanical zero, tighten the front sight screw and keep the 1/2 MOA rifle for himself.

This adjustment would be part of the GI issued the rifle sighting in...and that's why John Garand made the front sight as well as the rear sight adjustable...so the windage could be set with the rear sight at mechanical zero. That's the way I final zero all my M1s.

Jus' saying',

Harry

 

[giggitygiggity]

Man-sized targets at 600 yards with a stock M1 is reasonable. USMC shoots 500 yards with M16/M4 rifles at man-sized silhouettes. With proper technique and a good shooting position, it is easy to score hits at that range. The furthest I've shot my service grade CMP M1 has been 300 yards and I can keep them all on the man-sized target. I have full confidence (based on its MOA and sights) that 600 yard hits are reasonable. In combat conditions (unsteady shooting positions, moving targets, distractions), I'd reduce the expectancy of hit to 200-300 yards.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Lysander,

I'll defer to you as I have never read the specific acceptance standards. I will note that I have 5 M1s, each obtained from the CMP so that they clearly were once accepted by the US Army, and each needed a different number of clicks up from bottomed out to center on a standard military 100 yard target using a 6 o'clock hold. Each is capable of 4 MOA or better.

Cheers,

Harry

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Flatbush Harry:
At the risk of noting the obvious, were your statement true, an inspector would take an Allen wrench, loosen the front sight screw, tap the front sight in the direction of the off-center POI to center the 1/2" group with the windage set at mechanical zero, tighten the front sight screw and keep the 1/2 MOA rifle for himself.

The standards DO require him to take an Allen wrench and loosen the front screw and tap the front sight:

4.8.1.2 In the event that more than three clicks of windage adjustment is required, a correction must be made by shifting the front sight, but the movement shall not cause overhanging on either side.

Except, of course, the inspectors were not allowed to keep ANY rifles for themselves.

 

[Hangingrock]

After reading all the replies, I think that some of you are great story tellers and leave it at that.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Vern's comment in response to my post is absolutely correct. I regret not reading an above post thet stated that front sight must be adjusted. This is the trouble with a quick peek and a drive-by post.

Apologies to all.

Harry

 

[CoalTrain49]

I read an account of soldiers who were chasing Pancho Villa back into Mexico making 600 yd shots with an 03. Of course that was back in the day where there was a great deal of marksmanship training in the Army and no semi-auto rifles. I don't see why a well trained, practiced shooter couldn't effectively hit a man sized target at 600 yds. using an M1 with a good bore. Several shooters were making hits with an M1 at 600 yds the first day at the range in boot camp. It wasn't me however. The targets were scored from the target bunker and the DI said it happened so I think it actually happened.

 

[Robert]

This thread is 7 years old and the OP has not signed in in almost 3 years. Lets call it asked, answered and done.