Range of 12 ga.

[Dr_2_B]

I'm sorry this is such a pedestrian question, but I know pistols and rifles and not so much about scatterguns. My question pertains to personal defense

50 yards for a 12 ga with #4 buckshot?
" " ... #0 buckshot?
" " ... #00 buckshot?

What about 25 yards?
What about 75 yards?

Thanks

 

[PT92]

Really depends on factors like barrel length etc. but I say stick with #00 @25 and a slug any distance thereafter. And IMHO, #04 buckshot is not a humane load for a deer (It'll take them down but you will have to finish them off generally speaking).

-Cheers

 

[oneounceload]

WRONG, barrel length has NOTHING to do with it......CHOKE constriction will determine how tight your pattern stays together at longer distances

 

[T Bran]

+1 ONEOUNCE
Also I have found that mod or impmod outperform full in the larger buck sizes they seem to pattern better.

T

 

[PT92]

WRONG, barrel length has NOTHING to do with it......CHOKE constriction will determine how tight your pattern stays together at longer distances

Just to be sure, you are saying that at 50+ yards I can be just as accurate with a 14'' tactical sg as opposed to say an 1100 with a 28'' barrel?

Also, does the same apply in your opinion to slugs (barrel length irrelevant)?

-Cheers

 

[Fred Fuller]

Genuinely truthful answers to most questions about shotguns begin with the same two words - "It depends... ."

A reasonably truthful answer to your question(s) would be, it depends on the shotgun/barrel/choke/load/shooter. I know me, my gun and my chosen loads. I'm afraid I don't know you or yours.

I know that with my favorite 870, with its 18 1/8" factory CYL bore Police barrel, I'd not worry at all about my favorite load of 00 buck (Federal LE 127 00) patterning at 25 yards, because it shoots consistent patterns into about four inches at that range. And it will penetrate more than adequately as well at 25 yards. I'd be willing to push it to 40 yards if I had to, if I didn't have to worry about pellets missing the target. Beyond that, I'm switching to slugs (Brenneke KOs). And wishing for sights and not the plain bead that particular barrel wears.

A single pellet of buckshot might well kill at 100 yards or more, but shooting buckshot beyond the range at which you can keep all your pellets on the intended target might mean you take out a target you didn't intend to hit. Several good shotgun instructors out there remind their students that every buckshot pellet on its way downrange has a lawyer attached...

Once upon a time I tried to get a shotgun to work with buckshot all the way out to 100 yards. I could get from three to five pellets out of a 10-pellet load of 3" magnum 000 buck into an Army E type silhouette target at 100 yards, and the pellets easily penetrated the 2X6" pressure treated boards that made up the target frame. That was as far as I ever pushed it, and that was with an 18 1/8" Remington factory barrel that had been fitted for choke tubes, had its forcing cone lengthened and was wearing a $75 PatternMaster choke tube. Unfortunately that choke tube also precluded shooting slugs, so I decided I'd rather have the versatility and gave up on that particular avenue.

As to #4 buck, or 0, I don't use them. I'd have to do a good bit of patterning at different ranges before I could know what any given shotgun/barrel would do with a given load. And I'd have to do some penetration testing as well, especially with #4 buck. While it might do well at closer ranges, I'd expect it to run out of penetration sooner than the bigger heavier pellets would.

It might be difficult to establish a legally defensible reason for shooting buckshot in a claimed defensive encounter at ranges much further than household distances. That would depend on individual circumstances. Here, we live in a very rural area and law enforcement response times vary from slow to never. A shotgun is likely to be the go-to long gun here, so I've tried to establish what can be done at longer ranges with it. For example, it's 51 yards from our front door to our driveway gate here. That's slug range as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if this ramble helps answer your questions or not, but it's the best I have to offer.

lpl

 

[Sky]

200+ yard slug shots free hand making big holes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks

 

[PT92]

Genuinely truthful answers to most questions about shotguns begin with the same two words - "It depends... ."

A reasonably truthful answer to your question(s) would be, it depends on the shotgun/barrel/choke/load/shooter. I know me, my gun and my chosen loads. I'm afraid I don't know you or yours.

I know that with my favorite 870, with its 18 1/8" factory CYL bore Police barrel, I'd not worry at all about my favorite load of 00 buck (Federal LE 127 00) patterning at 25 yards, because it shoots consistent patterns into about four inches at that range. And it will penetrate more than adequately as well at 25 yards. I'd be willing to push it to 40 yards if I had to, if I didn't have to worry about pellets missing the target. Beyond that, I'm switching to slugs (Brenneke KOs). And wishing for sights and not the plain bead that particular barrel wears.

A single pellet of buckshot might well kill at 100 yards or more, but shooting buckshot beyond the range at which you can keep all your pellets on the intended target might mean you take out a target you didn't intend to hit. Several good shotgun instructors out there remind their students that every buckshot pellet on its way downrange has a lawyer attached...

Once upon a time I tried to get a shotgun to work with buckshot all the way out to 100 yards. I could get from three to five pellets out of a 10-pellet load of 3" magnum 000 buck into an Army E type silhouette target at 100 yards, and the pellets easily penetrated the 2X6" pressure treated boards that made up the target frame. That was as far as I ever pushed it, and that was with an 18 1/8" Remington factory barrel that had been fitted for choke tubes, had its forcing cone lengthened and was wearing a $75 PatternMaster choke tube. Unfortunately that choke tube also precluded shooting slugs, so I decided I'd rather have the versatility and gave up on that particular avenue.

As to #4 buck, or 0, I don't use them. I'd have to do a good bit of patterning at different ranges before I could know what any given shotgun/barrel would do with a given load. And I'd have to do some penetration testing as well, especially with #4 buck. While it might do well at closer ranges, I'd expect it to run out of penetration sooner than the bigger heavier pellets would.

It might be difficult to establish a legally defensible reason for shooting buckshot in a claimed defensive encounter at ranges much further than household distances. That would depend on individual circumstances. Here, we live in a very rural area and law enforcement response times vary from slow to never. A shotgun is likely to be the go-to long gun here, so I've tried to establish what can be done at longer ranges with it. For example, it's 51 yards from our front door to our driveway gate here. That's slug range as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if this ramble helps answer your questions or not, but it's the best I have to offer.

lpl

Lee,

Very illuminating response indeed.

-Cheers

 

[oneounceload]

Just to be sure, you are saying that at 50+ yards I can be just as accurate with a 14'' tactical sg as opposed to say an 1100 with a 28'' barrel?

Also, does the same apply in your opinion to slugs (barrel length irrelevant)?

-Cheers

Yep - if you are using equal loads through equal chokes, the results should be the same, or so close you can't tell the difference (after all, each gun IS a little different, but if you can take that out of the equation, then no difference).

A 14" barrel length difference in a high-powered rifle is another thing all together due to the pressures, etc. That is not as critical with shotguns

 

[PT92]

Just to be sure, you are saying that at 50+ yards I can be just as accurate with a 14'' tactical sg as opposed to say an 1100 with a 28'' barrel?

Also, does the same apply in your opinion to slugs (barrel length irrelevant)?

-Cheers[/QUOTE

Yep - if you are using equal loads through equal chokes, the results should be th same, or so close you can't tell the difference (after all, each gun IS a little different, but if you can take that out of the equation, then no difference).

A 14" barrel length difference in a high-powered rifle is another thing all together due to the pressures, etc. That is not as critical with shotguns

Great thread.

-Cheers

 

[waidmann]

The FBI preaches 18 yd. mortality with 00 Buck out of a short Cyl. barrel. My brother uses an 1100 with a rifled Hastings barrel and 50 cal. Remington sabots to take deer at 150 yds. I'd guess that approaches the extremes.

I haven't looked lately but Remington's 14.5" LE barrels were choked modified. The 18"'ers were Cyl.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Lee, guys like you are why I like THR so well. Thanks to you and to all the others for the help. I've opted for #4 buckshot for home defense from my 18" bbl Mossberg. In my case it won't even be 25 yards, but 25 feet max. But the info is still helpful.

 

[RickMD]

In all likelihood a court of law is going to frown upon the shooting of an individual at 50 yards and claiming self defense...

 

[okiewita40]

I'll just say that as an LEO that qualifies with a shotgun every 3 months this is what I would use. 00 buck for 25 yards and closer. Anything farther than that gets a 1oz slug. I have shot slugs out of my duty SG out to 100 yards and can hit reliably out to that range. It just takes practice.

Make sure to pattern your shotgun with any shot at various ranges and with different brands and chokes if you have them. I like 18.5" CYl bore for duty. As for hunting a 26" with interchangeable chokes. For wing shooting just use whatever size shot is suitable and legal. Patterning is always a good idea.

 

[RaceM]

The below is from an on-line article I came across. It pretty much agrees with personal experience so it's the system I use. YMMV



The Zone System - While the use of sights will enable a target to be hit, a method is needed to help determine the optimum engagement distances for the ammunition used. The zone system sets up bands of weapon performance versus ammunition selection. The first or "A" zone extends from the muzzle to about seven to 10 yards, where the pattern has typically expanded to between four and seven inches. Within this range the shot charge is effectively a single projectile and it is quite easy to miss a human sized target unless sights are used.

The "B" zone extends from the end of the "A" zone to that range where charge of buckshot has spread to about the width of the human torso (about twenty inches). This occurs at a range of between twenty to thirty-five yards for most weapons. Since the shot charge is spreading out the pattern must be centered to effectively turn off an assailant. While hits can be obtained without proper sights, it is just as fast and much more positive to do it with sights. At the course that I attended the maximum range for the "B" zone for a given ammunition was determined by the range at which the shotgun would consistently knock down a 10 inch diameter steel lollipop target with the buckshot used. (One student's shotgun would consistently drop the target at 35 yards and about 50% of the time at 40 yards! That's patterning!)

Past end of the "B" zone, at thirty-five yards or so depending on the individual weapon, even with modern buffered loads and hardened buckshot the shot charge usually spreads so much that the majority of pellets may not strike the target that is aimed at. This area is called the "C" zone and this is where the rifled slug comes into play. At the course that I attended one of the techniques taught is a "select slug" drill that teaches the rapid switching to a slug round with a shotgun loaded with buckshot when a C zone target appears. While the approximate distances of the zones can be memorized, many of the students used the width of the thick ghost ring system front sight blade as a reference for the B/C break point but once practiced a couple of times you get a feel for when it's time to switch and it becomes automatic.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The Zone System

That was indeed the basic system used and taught widely some years ago, and still is in some cases. But people have been working for a good while now to essentially eliminate the B Zone from the old zone system. New developments have made that not only possible, but fairly easy and even inexpensive as far as shotgun modifications are concerned.

For a while, extending the A Zone out to 40 yards (give or take a few yards) depended on internal barrel modifications - with an extended forcing cone and interchangeable choke tubes installed, there were 00 buckshot loads available that could deliver effective patterns at 25 yards and even further in some cases. But these modifications cost money, typically about $100 per barrel plus the cost of choke tubes.

Now it can be done simply by choosing a load that will deliver the desired level of performance through an unmodified factory CYL or ImpCyl barrel. And any one of several 00 loads with FliteControl wads will deliver this level of performance, if a shooter desires it. Federal, Hornady and Speer all make buckshot loads with FliteControl wads. And they work! Keep in mind, however, that it's possible to 'over choke' buckshot in some cases, and a tighter choke than ImpCyl might well cause wider patterns with some loads.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[RaceM]

Agreed. Flight control wads are the way to go. Everything I've read on them says the pattern is much tighter, even with 00 buck. The problem around here is finding them! Seems like every time a batch comes in they sell out quick.