David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Prompted by another thread to compare snubnose revolvers, the high-humped 442 vs a standard configured .38, I went to the range today.
My assertion is that if the backstrap on the 442 is open, you can acheive a higher grip. This means less muzzle flip, this means more accuracy at speed. "Speed" being defined by me in that thread as no more than 1/2 second (.50) between shots.
If you only shoot slowfire, then poor technique and even no technique won't reveal itself.
Another poster stated that his starting position was the "ready" position. Since I realize that there are several versions of this, I utilized the best one, what I call "Mo' Ready." This has the gun retracted to the chest, forearms touching chest, muzzle parallel to the ground.
My target, a sheet of typing paper affixed to a 2x3 foot piece of cardboard. Distance was the other posters distance of 5 yds.
Ammo was FACTORY FEDERAL 158 grain LSWCHP +P
A few disclaimers: Altho I've won two State Revolver titles in two different states, one IDPA, one IPSC, I don't consider myself an avid revolver shooter outside of hunting or plinking. Seldom do I try and see how fast I can go with one, so someone with greater skill can certainly better my times as well as my groups. Please understand, I am not trying to toot my own horn by any means, as my times and groups wouldn't hold up for very long among "good" revolver shooters. That said, on the other side of the coin, many reading this may find my times to be unbelievable. Trust me, they are not. I will discuss or clarify what I did or how I did it, but please don't waste our time by saying I didn't do what my results show. I present these results as a matter of interest, as they only reflect how I did with these guns on this day, nothing more.
First run of the day was with the S&W 442. At signal, I thrust towards the target and fired 5 shots. They were:
.67
.28
.25
.25
.24
-------
1.69 total time.
Group size was 3 3/8th's", with the best 3 right at one inch.
Comment: I thought this was a pretty good cold run with a gun I've not shot for a couple years. I also felt like I went slow, to ensure good hits.
Next gun up was a Charter Arms Undercover. I think it's a Second Gen, but I don't know how many gens there are. It's not a first or current gen. It approximates the 442 in weight without the high hump.
I flubbed the first run with it for a 2.30 total time, so I discarded it for the purposes of this drill.
Second run with the Charter went like this:
.67
.30
.25
.25
.24
--------
1.71 total time.
Group size: 7 3/4" Best 3: 3 1/8th"
Comment: It hurt !! Much more than the 442. Also, the hit at the top right hit the packaging tape I used to affix the paper to the cardboard and I think the bullet started to keyhole, creating a long, wide tear. That's why the bullet hole looks rather funky.
I have an all steel Colt Detective Special fitted with Hogue grips. These do not cover the backstrap and would make a fine grip for CCW.
.69
.28
.22
.23
.21
-------
1.63 total time
Group size: 5 1/8th" Best 3: 1 3/8th's"
Comment: Much more pleasant to shoot, but that's what an all steel .38 will do for you!
One more run with the 442 now that I was a little warmed up:
.65
.28
.22
.23
.20
------
1.58
Group size: 4.5" Best 3: 1.25"
Conclusion:
While I was happy with the shot-to-shot times, as well as how close they were to each other, regardless of which snubby was fired, it was easier and much more comfortable to get better hits with the 442. These results appear to support my claim that a proper high grip on a Centennial style gun IS, in fact, more accurate when shot at high speed. Larger grips on the Charter Arms might bring it into contention accuracy-wise, but then it wouldn't be a compact snubby.
Originally in the other thread, I defined "rapid fire" as 1/4 second between shots. I later redefined it as 1/2 second per shot on the premise that most people should be able to attain a rate of fire of 1/2 second per shot. After performing this drill, I will go back to the original 1/4 second per shot rate of fire for the high grip advantage to show itself.....at least for me. Slowing down the rate of fire to 1/2 second per shot would shrink the group sizes and would likely be identical, regardless of which gun was used. Unfortunately, it didn't cross my mind to "shoot slower," as I view any hit on the paper to be a good one for defensive drills. Maybe I'll slow down the rate of fire just a bit next time out and see if this speculation proves to be true.
I also tried some other guns on the "5 from high ready" for comparison. I am more familiar with these guns than the snubbies.
S&W Pro 9mm with factory ball
.60
.19
.16
.18
.16
-----
1.29
Group size: 6" Best 3: 3 1/8th"
Comment: Clearly, I was going more for speed than a tight group. Anywhere on paper was "good enough" for this one.
Kimber Compact Aluminum Stainless .45 acp
.58
.21
.18
.19
.19
------
1.35 Total time
Group size: 6 3/8th's" Best 3: 2"
My usual carry gun. The ammo was a mix of handloads that make "major," but they did kick a bit less than the Gold Dots I load it with.
I didn't have a camera with me at the range, except for my cell phone. I saved the targets and labeled them for taking these pictures later.
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My assertion is that if the backstrap on the 442 is open, you can acheive a higher grip. This means less muzzle flip, this means more accuracy at speed. "Speed" being defined by me in that thread as no more than 1/2 second (.50) between shots.
If you only shoot slowfire, then poor technique and even no technique won't reveal itself.
Another poster stated that his starting position was the "ready" position. Since I realize that there are several versions of this, I utilized the best one, what I call "Mo' Ready." This has the gun retracted to the chest, forearms touching chest, muzzle parallel to the ground.
My target, a sheet of typing paper affixed to a 2x3 foot piece of cardboard. Distance was the other posters distance of 5 yds.
Ammo was FACTORY FEDERAL 158 grain LSWCHP +P
A few disclaimers: Altho I've won two State Revolver titles in two different states, one IDPA, one IPSC, I don't consider myself an avid revolver shooter outside of hunting or plinking. Seldom do I try and see how fast I can go with one, so someone with greater skill can certainly better my times as well as my groups. Please understand, I am not trying to toot my own horn by any means, as my times and groups wouldn't hold up for very long among "good" revolver shooters. That said, on the other side of the coin, many reading this may find my times to be unbelievable. Trust me, they are not. I will discuss or clarify what I did or how I did it, but please don't waste our time by saying I didn't do what my results show. I present these results as a matter of interest, as they only reflect how I did with these guns on this day, nothing more.
First run of the day was with the S&W 442. At signal, I thrust towards the target and fired 5 shots. They were:
.67
.28
.25
.25
.24
-------
1.69 total time.
Group size was 3 3/8th's", with the best 3 right at one inch.
Comment: I thought this was a pretty good cold run with a gun I've not shot for a couple years. I also felt like I went slow, to ensure good hits.
Next gun up was a Charter Arms Undercover. I think it's a Second Gen, but I don't know how many gens there are. It's not a first or current gen. It approximates the 442 in weight without the high hump.
I flubbed the first run with it for a 2.30 total time, so I discarded it for the purposes of this drill.
Second run with the Charter went like this:
.67
.30
.25
.25
.24
--------
1.71 total time.
Group size: 7 3/4" Best 3: 3 1/8th"
Comment: It hurt !! Much more than the 442. Also, the hit at the top right hit the packaging tape I used to affix the paper to the cardboard and I think the bullet started to keyhole, creating a long, wide tear. That's why the bullet hole looks rather funky.
I have an all steel Colt Detective Special fitted with Hogue grips. These do not cover the backstrap and would make a fine grip for CCW.
.69
.28
.22
.23
.21
-------
1.63 total time
Group size: 5 1/8th" Best 3: 1 3/8th's"
Comment: Much more pleasant to shoot, but that's what an all steel .38 will do for you!
One more run with the 442 now that I was a little warmed up:
.65
.28
.22
.23
.20
------
1.58
Group size: 4.5" Best 3: 1.25"
Conclusion:
While I was happy with the shot-to-shot times, as well as how close they were to each other, regardless of which snubby was fired, it was easier and much more comfortable to get better hits with the 442. These results appear to support my claim that a proper high grip on a Centennial style gun IS, in fact, more accurate when shot at high speed. Larger grips on the Charter Arms might bring it into contention accuracy-wise, but then it wouldn't be a compact snubby.
Originally in the other thread, I defined "rapid fire" as 1/4 second between shots. I later redefined it as 1/2 second per shot on the premise that most people should be able to attain a rate of fire of 1/2 second per shot. After performing this drill, I will go back to the original 1/4 second per shot rate of fire for the high grip advantage to show itself.....at least for me. Slowing down the rate of fire to 1/2 second per shot would shrink the group sizes and would likely be identical, regardless of which gun was used. Unfortunately, it didn't cross my mind to "shoot slower," as I view any hit on the paper to be a good one for defensive drills. Maybe I'll slow down the rate of fire just a bit next time out and see if this speculation proves to be true.
I also tried some other guns on the "5 from high ready" for comparison. I am more familiar with these guns than the snubbies.
S&W Pro 9mm with factory ball
.60
.19
.16
.18
.16
-----
1.29
Group size: 6" Best 3: 3 1/8th"
Comment: Clearly, I was going more for speed than a tight group. Anywhere on paper was "good enough" for this one.
Kimber Compact Aluminum Stainless .45 acp
.58
.21
.18
.19
.19
------
1.35 Total time
Group size: 6 3/8th's" Best 3: 2"
My usual carry gun. The ammo was a mix of handloads that make "major," but they did kick a bit less than the Gold Dots I load it with.
I didn't have a camera with me at the range, except for my cell phone. I saved the targets and labeled them for taking these pictures later.
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