Sometimes the best love is tough love. Maybe he was just trying to toughen her up, make her liek one of the boys. You know in boot camp, nobody can be a sissy, all sissys end up scrubbing toilets with toothbrush. At least they did when my father was in the military. I like the concept of starting with the big boys (big guns) to break you in. I was always a bit on the extreme side. Not that I don't want to have many long hours, plinking with my beloved .22
Rant: Why Some Shooters Should Mind Their Own Business At The Range
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thirdeagle
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A surefire way to turn a new shooter (and a recoil sensitive shooter, at that) off from shooting is to put a cannon in their hands and say "go for it." Besides being a bad idea it is downright irresponsible. Yes, for the sake of comparison an amateur shooter should probably "experiment" with various calibers from various platforms to see what "fits." It is clear that the woman in training is not to that point.
In every CCW class I've held, around 200 students in total, where husband/wife, guy/girlfriend attended, I hear the same reaction when I say the words, "Guy's, because you shoot a large caliber gun there's no reason to assume she will be comfortable with it". The girls all chime in with "See even he says I'm right".
I would never have a new-be, male or female shoot anything over a 9MM for the first box of ammo. If they have never held a gun before your creating unnecessary problems. Flinching is the biggest issue to undo.
This isn't a sexist statement. Women, new to guns are tenative, fearful and scared, more-so than those males I've taught. I learned quickly that respecting those issues goes a long way to getting them comfortable with what happens when the trigger breaks.
To the OP. I believe the guy next to you was trying to show as others have mentioned, what a "real" kick would be like. You did well in blowing him off although I would have explained to him the first time why more isn't better in this situation and that you were not comfortable going there with this student.
Three hours of range-time is pushing it. I'm quite sure she had a very sore wrist when she got home. After the first complaint about her discomfort I would have stopped and dropped down to something smaller. The second complaint she gave you was your signal to stop and re-think what were your (Vs Her) priorities.
Just my ol 2¢
I would never have a new-be, male or female shoot anything over a 9MM for the first box of ammo. If they have never held a gun before your creating unnecessary problems. Flinching is the biggest issue to undo.
This isn't a sexist statement. Women, new to guns are tenative, fearful and scared, more-so than those males I've taught. I learned quickly that respecting those issues goes a long way to getting them comfortable with what happens when the trigger breaks.
To the OP. I believe the guy next to you was trying to show as others have mentioned, what a "real" kick would be like. You did well in blowing him off although I would have explained to him the first time why more isn't better in this situation and that you were not comfortable going there with this student.
Three hours of range-time is pushing it. I'm quite sure she had a very sore wrist when she got home. After the first complaint about her discomfort I would have stopped and dropped down to something smaller. The second complaint she gave you was your signal to stop and re-think what were your (Vs Her) priorities.
Just my ol 2¢
The .45s in 1911 and Standard frame glocks have kicked slighly less than Glock 22 and other standard frame guns in 40s&w to me. The 9MMs even harder, but they were in smaller guns. I was thinking about a gun fore the wife I was leaning toward a large frame gun in 45 or a smaller gun in 380, she is like 110.
i had my gf shooting .38 special +p, then she started saying it kind of kicks hard. i put her on a .22 and she was shooting the .38 really accurate but still said it wasnt so comfortable. so i asked her if she would like to feel uncomfortable. out comes the super redhawk .44 mag. yeah she shot a cylinder full (surprised me) now she says 125 gr .357 isnt too bad.
IMO you need to be more friendly while at the range.
IMO you need to be more friendly while at the range.
Duke of Doubt
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Grey Mana: "Separately, a lot of men use the range as an unusual date. It's a great idea. When the guy is confident and the girl knows she is on date, then gregarious old men offering advice are a plus. They add color and interest.
But when some guy is trying to make the range a Stealth Date, and the girl thinks they are Just Friends, then the guy is going to get upset about Enrico Suave swooping in."
Yup! The ones who find holding a gun empowering, recoil a kick like the rumble of a Harley, and the scent of burnt powder and Hoppes #9 irresistible colognes are the ones for me. Only thing is, the ones who most get turned on by holding a gun usually come with more baggage than a sales rep for Samsonite.
But when some guy is trying to make the range a Stealth Date, and the girl thinks they are Just Friends, then the guy is going to get upset about Enrico Suave swooping in."
Yup! The ones who find holding a gun empowering, recoil a kick like the rumble of a Harley, and the scent of burnt powder and Hoppes #9 irresistible colognes are the ones for me. Only thing is, the ones who most get turned on by holding a gun usually come with more baggage than a sales rep for Samsonite.
Kor,
We will never know what the motive/s of that guy truly were.
Regardless, I think you correctly avoided introducing more recoil to your student who already expressed her concern over the recoil she was experiencing.
You mentioned that you had her using the two-handed isosceles stance. While it is certainly better than one handed firing, the Weaver stance controls recoil much better than a two-handed isosceles stance. The weak hand must pull back against the strong hand and the elbow of the weak arm must be down to counter the muzzle flip.
Please ignore my free advice as I was not there and have no real knowledge of what was going on. You have my kudos for taking the time and effort to train a novice and likely life long proponent of the Second Amendment.
We will never know what the motive/s of that guy truly were.
Regardless, I think you correctly avoided introducing more recoil to your student who already expressed her concern over the recoil she was experiencing.
You mentioned that you had her using the two-handed isosceles stance. While it is certainly better than one handed firing, the Weaver stance controls recoil much better than a two-handed isosceles stance. The weak hand must pull back against the strong hand and the elbow of the weak arm must be down to counter the muzzle flip.
Please ignore my free advice as I was not there and have no real knowledge of what was going on. You have my kudos for taking the time and effort to train a novice and likely life long proponent of the Second Amendment.
Sav .250
Member
You meet strange people where ever you are/go. 
bandreassen
Member
I've very new to shooting, but found early on after renting several calibers that a 1911 had less recoil, was more accurate and was more fun to shoot than some of the J Frames, semi-auto's.
A lot of people want to push revolvers on newbies, but I found the semi-autos more to my liking. It is what fits the shooter the best. Everyone will have their own preferences.
After renting several times, trying close to a dozen handguns, I ended up with a 1911.
A lot of people want to push revolvers on newbies, but I found the semi-autos more to my liking. It is what fits the shooter the best. Everyone will have their own preferences.
After renting several times, trying close to a dozen handguns, I ended up with a 1911.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
There seems to be a certain subset of cretin that finds great delight in having recoil-sensitive shooters fire a weapon with a lot of recoil.
I've never understood the mindset of that sort of person, as they are likely to ingrain a flinch in the new shooter while simultaneously turning them off to shooting altogether.
I've never understood the mindset of that sort of person, as they are likely to ingrain a flinch in the new shooter while simultaneously turning them off to shooting altogether.
CountGlockula
Member
Unfortunately, with us dudes...size does matter.
Ridgerunner665
Member
After reading this...I think the lady may be better off with a 9mm.
Its no secret that I'm not a 9mm fan...but if the recoil of the 40 is uncomfortable for her, she may not be willing to put in as much range time as she would with the 9mm...just a thought.
Also...I would have let her shoot the 45, its recoil is not as sharp as the 40...she may have liked it.
Its no secret that I'm not a 9mm fan...but if the recoil of the 40 is uncomfortable for her, she may not be willing to put in as much range time as she would with the 9mm...just a thought.
Also...I would have let her shoot the 45, its recoil is not as sharp as the 40...she may have liked it.
WardenWolf
member
Some people are just jerks. Two things I'd never do: try to get someone to fire more gun than they feel comfortable shooting, and let a little kid shoot a Mosin Nagant no matter how much he asks.
logjam
Member
If I'm teaching a women to shoot I never have her shoot anything harder than a .38. We practice with a .22.
Shooting a .22 she can concentrate on the sights and enjoy the experience. No need to beat this women up with a hard shooting pistol. If I'm shooting a .357, I never, ever load anything more than a standard .38. I prefer wad cutters, which can be loaded to a pip squeek.
I want my student to enjoy the event and even go to the range or woods by herself and have fun shooting. I want her to warm to the pistol. Giving her a he man shooter will just turn her away from the process.
Moreover, if I'm a bad guy and I approach a women with evil intent and she whips out her .22 Single Six, I'm not waiting around to access it's caliber. For that matter, I am not all that wild about having 22 caliber holes poked into my pink and white body.
I suggest that when we teach a lady to shoot that we provide her with a pistol that fits her hand and is a .22.
Shooting a .22 she can concentrate on the sights and enjoy the experience. No need to beat this women up with a hard shooting pistol. If I'm shooting a .357, I never, ever load anything more than a standard .38. I prefer wad cutters, which can be loaded to a pip squeek.
I want my student to enjoy the event and even go to the range or woods by herself and have fun shooting. I want her to warm to the pistol. Giving her a he man shooter will just turn her away from the process.
Moreover, if I'm a bad guy and I approach a women with evil intent and she whips out her .22 Single Six, I'm not waiting around to access it's caliber. For that matter, I am not all that wild about having 22 caliber holes poked into my pink and white body.
I suggest that when we teach a lady to shoot that we provide her with a pistol that fits her hand and is a .22.
db_tanker
Member
my "at the time" fiancee and I were shooting and I started her off with a Ruger 22/45. naturally she loved it.
Then, after she had her fill, she wanted to shoot something with a bit more oomph. So I pulled out my 92FS. Automatically she disliked it. The grips were all wrong for her hand. I have a large paw, and naturally enough I can handle the 92 just fine. Also to add to that it has CT's so the grip is slightly wider even than normal 92's. SO...she picks up my 1911. And 200 rounds later it is no longer mine.
So..now I have to be careful not to bring in too many single-stack firearms into the house...if I want to keep them.
Perhaps the 357 mag would have been a bad idea, but you never can tell with a 1911.
Regardless, all in all I don't think he was really trying to be a cretin...as has been stated, most firearm owners like to brag...and the best way to brag is to let others shoot their firearms.
MTCW
D
Then, after she had her fill, she wanted to shoot something with a bit more oomph. So I pulled out my 92FS. Automatically she disliked it. The grips were all wrong for her hand. I have a large paw, and naturally enough I can handle the 92 just fine. Also to add to that it has CT's so the grip is slightly wider even than normal 92's. SO...she picks up my 1911. And 200 rounds later it is no longer mine.
So..now I have to be careful not to bring in too many single-stack firearms into the house...if I want to keep them.
Perhaps the 357 mag would have been a bad idea, but you never can tell with a 1911.
Regardless, all in all I don't think he was really trying to be a cretin...as has been stated, most firearm owners like to brag...and the best way to brag is to let others shoot their firearms.
MTCW
D
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
What this guy was doing was not paying attention. Your aim is to help him along in the attention span of things when it comes to range etiquette.
Alot of people talk while at the range and range etiquette applies.
#1 Don't interrupt a block of instruction given to someone else who is trying to learn.
You were right in showing no interest the first time and when he didn't take the hint. You should have been more direct and to the point the second time you were interrupted..
Knowing it or not he was showing off his hormone trait. It happens in golf as well. A polite thank you but no thanks with a direct look eye to eye ought to do it. If he seems a bit thick in the receiving dept afterwards then stop what you are doing and give him a full explanation of what you are doing and no one here is interested right now.
#2 If you are acting like you are the god almighty authority on a particular handgun keep it to yourself while at the range.
#3 If there is a conversation going on and if you are a stranger You may listen and if they seem friendly enough they will allow you to talk.
#4 Targets do the talking.
Alot of people talk while at the range and range etiquette applies.
#1 Don't interrupt a block of instruction given to someone else who is trying to learn.
You were right in showing no interest the first time and when he didn't take the hint. You should have been more direct and to the point the second time you were interrupted..
Knowing it or not he was showing off his hormone trait. It happens in golf as well. A polite thank you but no thanks with a direct look eye to eye ought to do it. If he seems a bit thick in the receiving dept afterwards then stop what you are doing and give him a full explanation of what you are doing and no one here is interested right now.
#2 If you are acting like you are the god almighty authority on a particular handgun keep it to yourself while at the range.
#3 If there is a conversation going on and if you are a stranger You may listen and if they seem friendly enough they will allow you to talk.
#4 Targets do the talking.
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FoMoGo
Member
I know a few people who shoot a .45 better than a 9mm.
Most people I know state that the .40 is worse than both the 9mm and .45acp in similar guns.
.45 isnt a kicker... and a 686 isnt a kicker.
If this guy thinks they are... maybe he needs to turn in his man card.
Jim
Most people I know state that the .40 is worse than both the 9mm and .45acp in similar guns.
.45 isnt a kicker... and a 686 isnt a kicker.
If this guy thinks they are... maybe he needs to turn in his man card.
Jim
One thing I am fairly certain of....
The guy DID NOT have the new shooter's best interest at heart.
He's a typical Jack-@$$ that takes pleasure in other's pain/discomfort.
When I was a 135 pound HS student, a guy dared me to shoot his custom Ruger #1 chambered in .458 Win. Mag. I knew it would kick, and I anticipated it.
After shooting it, I discovered that he PURPOSELY handloaded the rounds that I shot to be "hot." He got a big ol' kick out of that.
Some people are just wired that way. They like to see people in discomfort.
And I'll probably find a way to chuckle if that man I mentioned ever has testicular atrophy...
-- John
The guy DID NOT have the new shooter's best interest at heart.
He's a typical Jack-@$$ that takes pleasure in other's pain/discomfort.
When I was a 135 pound HS student, a guy dared me to shoot his custom Ruger #1 chambered in .458 Win. Mag. I knew it would kick, and I anticipated it.
After shooting it, I discovered that he PURPOSELY handloaded the rounds that I shot to be "hot." He got a big ol' kick out of that.
Some people are just wired that way. They like to see people in discomfort.
And I'll probably find a way to chuckle if that man I mentioned ever has testicular atrophy...
-- John
logjam
Member
In the early 80's I was a Basic Training drill sergeant stationed mostly at Fort Jackson and some at Fort Benning. Benning was wonderful, Jackson was so so.
At Jackson I often had women trainees. In basic training we taught them to shoot both the M-16 and familiarized them with with the 1911. I was out before the Model 92 came around.
So I trained many women to shoot. They shot the M-16 just fine. They did very well, as a matter of fact.
The .45 was a different matter. While the 1911 may not kick you, it kicks the dickens out of many shooters. Women had a very difficult time with the weapon. It not only kicks, but it twists also.
I never trained with the M92 while in the Army. I have never shot one to this day. I shoot a High Power, which I like.
I believe when training to shoot a pistol the lightest kicker that you can find is the best training weapon.
At Jackson I often had women trainees. In basic training we taught them to shoot both the M-16 and familiarized them with with the 1911. I was out before the Model 92 came around.
So I trained many women to shoot. They shot the M-16 just fine. They did very well, as a matter of fact.
The .45 was a different matter. While the 1911 may not kick you, it kicks the dickens out of many shooters. Women had a very difficult time with the weapon. It not only kicks, but it twists also.
I never trained with the M92 while in the Army. I have never shot one to this day. I shoot a High Power, which I like.
I believe when training to shoot a pistol the lightest kicker that you can find is the best training weapon.
KarenTOC
Member
I have to side with the OP.
Had I been in her shoes, and had my trainer taken the guy up on his offer and handed me the bigger gun to shoot, I suspect that after shooting it once I would have put the gun down, turned, and walked out out, never to return.
It would have been a very mean trick.
Had I been in her shoes, and had my trainer taken the guy up on his offer and handed me the bigger gun to shoot, I suspect that after shooting it once I would have put the gun down, turned, and walked out out, never to return.
It would have been a very mean trick.
bluetopper
Member
I start all female shooters off with either a .22, 380 or a 38. Preferably a double action 38 revolver so they can visibly see the hammer. No high pressure snappie calibers. No sense in it.
They find it much more tolerable and are much more likely to go to the range the next time.
They find it much more tolerable and are much more likely to go to the range the next time.
esmith
Member
While we are on the topic of dinosaur named cartridges I think my 20mm death-dactyle 3 shot revolver puts most anything to shame. You can only shoot it 3 times before you have to get a new gun because it technically destroys itself when you shoot it.
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