Rare 1911?

[Ryanxia]

Today a guy brought in an old 1911 and was wanting some information about it. It looked very unique so I examined it and took down some information. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera to take pictures, but my buddy took a picture with his cell phone and will e-mail it to me later.

Hopefully this description will be enough to identify the time period/ history/ rough value of this gun.

Remington Rand inc.
Syracuse, NY U.S.A.
Serial #17XX
Left side of frame towards muzzle it says: UNITED STATES PROPERTY
Left side of frame near the grips are the letters E.E.C. and it has what could be an eagle's head but I really can't tell. Right below the symbol it says E1.

It has a lanyard loop on the bottom which leads me to think it's around WW1?

It also has the original brown wooden grips, checkered with two raised diamond shapes near the screw holes.

I know a picture is worth a thousand words and as soon as my friend sends me the (probably low quality) picture I'll post it. Thanks in advance for any info on the timeframe/history/value.

 

[rcmodel]

Remington-Rand only made 1911A1's during WWII from 1942 to 1945.

However that serial number is WAY out of range for anything they made.

Most likely it is a very early WWI Remington/UMC 1911 frame with a later WWII Remington Rand slide on it.
Serial 17XX would date to a Remington/UMC made in 1918.

E.E.C. = Edmund E. Chapman was the government inspecter at Remington/UMC (S/N 1-21676) in 1918 and 1919.

In all it sounds like a parts gun put together with WWI & WWII parts.

BTW: All GI 1911's & 1911A1's ever made had laynard loops on the mainspring housing so that is no indication of age.

rc

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks for the info, that's disappointing that it's probably a parts gun, it is in great shape though.

 

[MMCSRET]

rc: is it possible that it could have been a rework sometime during the Remington Rand production run?

 

[Jim Watson]

Pictures would be a big help.

An arsenal refurb with a Rand slide on a UMC frame would be no more unusual than any other Mixmaster.
The only question is whether this is an arsenal refurb with proper markings and matching finish, a depot refurb with no overhaul markings that will take some faith even if it looks good, or just a parts gun.

 

[Ryanxia]

I always post pictures but in this case I didn't have my camera and the gun isn't mine
Hopefully my buddy will e-mail me the picture he took but I'm betting it won't be very good quality.

 

[Ryanxia]

I just got the one picture he was able to take before his phone died.

 

[ghitch75]

by the pic it's a parts gun......frame and slide don't match....it's just as RC said.....here is what is complete Remington UMC looks like...

 

[Ryanxia]

Anyone know what the value of something like this is?

 

[ghitch75]

500 to 700.....i think you might make more partin' it out....

 

[Ryanxia]

Really you think that low? Even as a parts gun I would think a decent amount higher..

 

[ghitch75]

see what others say.....it's just my 2 cents....

 

[Ryanxia]

Ya I'd be curious to hear what others think. Thanks for the help everybody.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I suspect you'd have to have a really good day to get more than $800.

It's a parts gun and its seen a lot of wear.

Doesn't mean it won't shoot like the dickens. Means as a 'collector' it's very low end.

 

[theautobahn]

When you guys say "parts gun" - is it something that was most likely put together at an armory for re-issue, or is it a mutt gun assembled by a civilian?

 

[rcmodel]

Mutt gun.

A GI rebuild during or after WWII when the slide was made would have had matching re-parkerizing, plastic grips, A1 cuts on the frame behind the trigger, a short trigger, long-tang grip safety, and ordinance rebuild markings.

This gun is definitely something someone put together out of stolen and/or surplus parts on the kitchen table..

rc

 

[1911Tuner]

The frame appears to be correct, right down to the double diamond walnut grips.

The slide is Remington Rand.

In the law enforcement community, that there's known as...a clue.

Here's my guess.

The original slide busted at the rear of the port where they usually did, and the owner picked up a used Rand slide at a show and assembled himself a working pistol.

The good news is that the grips will probably fetch a hundred bucks. The trigger...assuming that it's the original milled piece...will bring about 75. If the lugs in the slide look good, another 250-300 for a good Rand slide. The complete pre-A1 frame is probably worth 400 dollars by itself...maybe more, depending on condition and whether you can find a collector with a correct slide and barrel.

If an original pinned-base magazine came with it, add another 75. If it's two-toned...up to 150 dollars for the magazine alone, again depending on condition.

The whole gun itself has little collector interest. As somebody suggested, you can probably get more for it parted out. On the upside, there's not a thing wrong with a mixmaster if it works. While I wouldn't shoot it a lot, it's still a good, solid .45 Automatic.

 

[gunnysmith]

The serial number is the interesting part.
Serial #17XX
It doesn't fit any good range.
I have a repatriated 1911 (not A1) from China.
It had the right side milled and new numbers stamped by the Chinese Government.
See if there is a noticable gap with the slide on the right side of the frame at the rail, looking from the rear of the pistol.

 

[rcmodel]

There ya go then.

I do believe 1911 Tuner has correctly accessed the situation, and parted out value of the gun!

Now that eBay has allowed selling gun parts again, that right there is probably worth more in pieces then it is all put together and shooting.

We used to buy $150 buck Winchester 1890's beaters and sell them part by part & screw by screw for $700 - $800 on eBay.

rc

 

[Jim K]

Hi, rcmodel,

Not true. If only a slide was bad, the slide would be replaced with any serviceable slide that was handy. Other parts would not be changed to the latest type nor would the gun be refinished unless it had bare, shiny, spots.

Even in a complete rebuild, refinishing was not done unless there were bare/shiny spots and the finger cuts were not made in M1911 frames.

It is quite possible that that slide was replaced in the service, but there is no way to be sure one way or the other.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

He ask about an Ordinance rebuild.

Not a Field Expedient slide swap by a GI with a helmet liner full of slides.

But regardless of all that?
An ordinance depot did not do it after the Remington Rand slide was made available in WWII without also upgrading the other 1911A1 parts at the same time, and re-dipping it in parkerizing so the finish matched.

rc

 

[gyvel]

An ordinance depot did not do it after the Remington Rand slide was made available in WWII without also upgrading the other 1911A1 parts at the same time, and re-dipping it in parkerizing so the finish matched.

Ordnance depots did not arbitrarily replace with "upgraded" parts.

Plenty of 1911s floating around marked with "AA", "RIA" etc. that are more or less original assemblies (slide, frame, long triggers, short hammers, etc.) with maybe a new pair of A1 grips, or one or two odd parts that were deemed necessary to be replaced, then Parkerized.

I have seen enough 1911s done that way, and have a couple in my collection.

 

[Jim Watson]

I never saw an arsenal refurb with A1 finger scallops cut in a 1911 frame.
It just wouldn't be worth the man and machine time.

There was a hotly debated example on the 1911 board that allegedly belonged to a Colt employee who used his connections to have his own gun completely converted to A1 configuration, but that is not the same thing.