Rare Treat - A Pair of Russians

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I thought I was the cat's pajamas when I showed up at a Cowboy Action match last weekend with my S&W New Model Number Three. Imagine my surprise when I spotted a pair of Russians in the holsters of another member of my posse. Then imagine my surprise when I realized they were the real thing, not modern reproductions.

I was all over him to examine them. I said I would love to get some photos. I was also hinting very heavily that I would love to get a chance to shoot them. We were both shooting our old Smiths with Black Powder and we compared loads when I noticed his loads were much louder than mine. turns out he was using about 26 grains of powder under a 240 grain bullet, while my load was much milder at only about 20 grains of powder under a 200 grain bullet.

Well, I never did get a chance to shoot his Russians, bummer. But at least I got some photos. The one at the top in the first two photos is one of the Japanese Navy contract guns. The one at the bottom of the photos is one of the guns that S&W licensed Ludwig and Loewe to make in Germany.





I got a pretty good photo of the Japanese Navy acceptance marking on the bottom of the frame of the Japanese gun.



I got an OK photo of the markings on the barrel. It turns out the gun was brought back from Japan by a GI at the end of WWII. Some Japanese officer was probably carrying his grandfather's gun. My friend bought it at auction a number of years ago. It was in a beat up old flap holster and appeared to be covered with rust. He got it for $800. When he got it home he started cleaning it, and it turned out the 'rust' was disintegrating leather and old oil. That's when the navy acceptance mark emerged. Turned out the bore and chambers were pristine.



The Ludwig and Loewe gun appears to have been refinished at some time. I got an OK but slightly out of focus photo of the markings on the top of the barrel. He did not tell me how much he paid for this one, but I told him if he ever wants to get rid of either one, to give me a call. He just smiled.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Those are pretty awesome, thanks for sharing! I'd love to have an old large frame S&W top-break, but boy, they're pricey and I've got other gun wants that take priority. Someday, maybe I'll have one.

 

[Jaymo]

Why is it the original top break Smiths work fine, but there seems to be so much trouble with the Italian repros?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Why is it the original top break Smiths work fine, but there seems to be so much trouble with the Italian repros?

Exactly what trouble are you talking about? There was another guy on my posse and he was shooting a pair of Uberti Schofields. He had no trouble with them at all.

It is true that the modern reproductions do not handle Black Powder as well as the originals, but that is because of some very specific design changes. Other than that, I am not aware of any problems with the Uberti reproductions.

P.S. Just for a teaser, here is my New Model Number Three, made in 1882.

 

[murf]

driftwood, can you explain the intended use of the finger catch underneath the trigger guard?

murf

 

[19-3Ben]

No way. Those are seriously awesome!

 

[Old Fuff]

driftwood, can you explain the intended use of the finger catch underneath the trigger guard?

Not driftwood, but ...

It releases the ejector so that you can tip the barrel down and not eject all the cartridges or fired cases.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Driftwood, that #3 is making me jealous! Very nice.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

driftwood, can you explain the intended use of the finger catch underneath the trigger guard?

If you are referring to the spur under the trigger guard, nobody really knows why it was there. The Russians insisted on it. Some theorize that it was put there to hang the pistol from a belt. Others have stated that it was to ward of saber blows. The truth is, nobody really knows exactly why the Russians insisted on it. It was inconvenient, and a lot of Russian revolvers eventually had the spur sawn off

 

[cyclopsshooter]

neat!

 

[Jaymo]

What is this smokeless gunpowder of which you speak?
I meant, why don't they work worth a damn (allegedly) when run on BP (like they should be)?
What are the design changes that cause them to choke?

 

[_JD_]

Very, very cool. If I were ever to get into Cowboy Shooting, I'd be using some top breaks.

 

[barnbwt]

I wish I could afford one of those beauties. Alas, I could only part with the money for a cheap Belgian knock-off of those top-breaks. I still thing it's the most interesting (and intuitive) revolver design anyone ever came up with.

Maybe I'll find an Uberti repro in good used condition one of these days...

TCB

 

[Old Fuff]

If you are referring to the spur under the trigger guard, nobody really knows why it was there.

Sure, the Old Fuff knows. At the time a shooter would wrap their second finger in the curved spur. The technique was particularly popular in Europe.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

What is this smokeless gunpowder of which you speak?
I meant, why don't they work worth a damn (allegedly) when run on BP (like they should be)?
What are the design changes that cause them to choke?

There is no 'allegedly' about it. Modern reproductions of S&W Top Break revolvers perform poorly when shot with Black Powder.

The most important feature for keeping a revolver from binding when shooting Black Powder is a large bushing or gas collar at the front of the cylinder. The bushing is placed so that it is directly in line with the barrel/cylinder gap. The bushing then deflects Black Powder fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder arbor. If there is no bushing to protect the cylinder pin, or if it is too small, fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap will be deposited directly on the cylinder pin, and it will also be blasted down between the pin and the cylinder. This is the main cause for the cylinder to bind when shot with Black Powder.

When S&W, Colt, and all the others designed their revolvers in the mid to late 1800s, the only propellant that existed was Black Powder. So they designed their guns to shoot Black Powder without binding.

Here is a close up photo of the barrel/cylinder gap area of my New Model Number Three. The gas collar is the piece in front of the cylinder. It is a separate piece, but it is permanently pressed into the front of the cylinder. You can clearly see that the front of the gas collar is not in the same plane as the barrel/cylinder gap, by about 1/8". This means that fouling blasted out of the b/c gap will be deflected away from the cylinder pin underneath.



Here is a photo of the front of the cylinder, showing the gas collar.




Here is a photo of the entire arrangement. The cylinder pin slips inside the arbor and the gas collar fits around the arbor. The gas collar prevents the fouling from reaching the arbor. In addition, the helical grooves cut around the base of the arbor serve as clearance cuts for any fouling that does manage to get inside the arbor. Very similar to the helical grooves cut around the arbor of a Colt style Cap & Ball revolver.




This design allows me to shoot my New Model Number Three for an entire CAS match with 44 Russian cartridges loaded with Black Powder. As long as I do my part and use bullets that carry enough BP compatible bullet lube, I can shoot this gun all day and it never binds up on me.

This arrangement was common on all of Smith's revolvers. Here is a photo of the b/c gap area on an old Lemon Squeezer of mine.



Here is a good shot of the arrangement on a S&W 44 American.



Here is a close up of the b/c gap and gas collar on one of he Russian revolvers that I photographed. You can clearly see the gas collar and its relationship to the barrel/cylinder gap.





*****************************



Anyway what happened when Uberti brought out their version of the Schofield revolver is they lengthened the cylinder to accommodate the 45 Colt cartridge. The originals shot the 45 Schofield cartridge, but Uberti chambered them for 45 Colt. The original length of the cylinders would not accommodate the longer 45 Colt cartridge, so the cylinder was lengthened about 1/8". But the frames were not lengthened a corresponding amount. The extra 1/8" or so was 'stolen' from the gas collar. It was shortened enough that it became useless for deflecting fouling blasted out of the b/c gap away from the arbor.


Here is a photo of a partially disassembled Uberti Schofield, showing the truncated gas collar.



So the modern Uberti versions of the Schofield and Russian revolvers tend to bind up quickly with BP fouling because of the lack of an effective gas collar. It is simply too short to effectively shield the arbor from fouling. Most shooters I have talked to cannot get beyond one cylinder full with Black Powder before they start to bind up.





Incidenatlly, when S&W reissued the Schofield in 2000, they too shortened the gas collar, and because of that the modern S&W Schofields perform poorly with Black Powder too. The modern S&W Schofields were chambered for 45 Schofield, not 45 Colt, but for whatever reason S&W chose to shorten the gas collar. They also did away with the helical cuts around the arbor. Here is a photo of the gas collar on one of the modern S&W Schofield revolvers. Notice that the gas collar is almost nonexistent, only functioning as a bushing to keep the cylinder from rubbing on the frame, but it is completely useless for preventing Black Powder binding.

Calls to Smith & Wesson at the time stated that the Performance Center Schofields were designed to shoot Smokeless powder, not Black Powder.



In summary, the Top Break revolvers manufactured recently by Uberti and Smith & Wesson are fine shooters, they perform very well with Smokeless powder, but they bind up quickly when fired with Black Powder.



Incidentally, in case you are interested, here is a photo of the barrel/cylinder gap and bushing area of a 2nd Generation Colt SAA.





The three cylinders in this photo are, left to right, Uberti Cattleman, Ruger Vaquero, and Colt. The photo plainly shows the bushings at the front of the cylinders. The Ruger bushing is an integral part of the cylinder, the Colt and Uberti bushings are removable.





Here is a photo of the Uberti and Colt bushings removed from their cylinders.




And yes, because of the large bushing milled into the front of the cylinder, Ruger Vaqueros shoot Black Powder very well without binding. This photo shows the barrel/cylinder gap and bushing area on a Ruger. The bushing is even more pronounced than on a Colt, and it shoots Black Powder very well. I can shoot Black Powder 45 Colt loads out of it all day long with no binding.




************

OK, just a little bit more about cylinders and bushings and then I will shut up.

One of the worst performers with Black Powder is the 1858 Remington. There is no bushing on the front of the cylinder, it is milled flat. Here is a photo. This one happens to have a cartridge conversion cylinder mounted, but the percussion cylinders are the same. The cylinder pin lies directly under the barrel/cylinder gap and there is nothing to prevent fouling blasted out of the gap from building up on the pin. I can't get much more than one cylinder full of Black Powder cartridges out of this gun, or its brother, without the cylinder starting to bind up.





Here is a photo of the front of the original percussion cylinder, and a cartridge conversion cylinder for my Remington. Notice the complete lack of a bushing at the front of the cylinder.



The lack of a bushing, plus the narrowness of the cylinder pin both contribute to the fact that these guns need to have their cylinder faces wiped down after just about every cylinder full, or they will begin to bind.

 

[Radagast]

Driftwood Johnson:
Thank you for that very educational post. I've never shot black powder and never considered the differences in engineering required. You just taught this old dog a new trick.

 

[BCRider]

DJ, next time out try lubing the pin on your Remington with Canola oil. It's all I use on my two Uberti guns and I can shoot a whole 6 CAS stages and even more without the cylinders binding up.

I extract the pin and oil it well in the morning and then use a drop on the point of fouling and giver'er a spin or two to loosen and move away any fouling. Using this trick my Remingtons are as easy to index at the end of the day as the first.

The cylinders do become a bit "oozy" over the first two cylinders. But then they stay at that same level of viscous feel. With the oil and fouling by the end of the day mixed up the only drag I have is sort of like if I packed the pin and cylinder hole with a grease of some sort.

 

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // Outstanding, thank you for sharing, those are three very nice examples.

I know someone that has a S&W Russian but that is as close as I've gotten to one.
He does not shoot it.
Congrats on the bore being pristine, the old BP guns are often pitted.

I do not know anyone with a no. 3 that nice. Beautiful.


Glad to hear the old top breaks are still being used and can hold up to solid loads too.
I have a couple of .38 Lemon Squeezers that need a work out.

 

[BBQLS1]

Very cool guns.

 

[Kernel]

This is why "Revolvers" is my favorite forum. Good stuff.

 

[Jaymo]

Old break top Smiths are gorgeous.

 

[gspn]

Dude...I thought this was gonna be a Sharapova/Kournikova thread...

 

[goon]

That is awesome!

 

[Dnaltrop]

Very Drool worthy.

On the Spur, (from a Top-Break post earlier this year)

~ From David R. Chicoine's Book "Smith and Wesson Sixguns of the Old west" (one of the best books on old top breaks, hands down) ~

In the fall of 1871, the Russians came back for a second order of top breaks, The trigger spur was added to the Second model Russian by a request from Captain Ordinetz, to help control the recoil of the new guns. Additionally they widened the thumbpiece for the Hammer-spur, shortened the barrel to 7 from 8 inches, and added the distinctive "knuckle" at the back.

http://www.oldwestgunsmith.com/ <<< VERY good books Mr Chicoine writes.

And the Navy branded earlier Top break Replicas are the ones that were prone to issues, The current Uberti / Taylor's (#0855) one I have is still solid as a rock.

 

[Trebor]

Great thread guys. Thanks for the info.