Rate of fire vs. caliber. IE 9mm 6 quick vs. .45 2 Slow

[Shmackey]

I rarely shoot for speed, but I have compared a steel CZ 75B Compact with a steel Gov't 1911. Side by side. Pick one up, pick the other up. I was paying attention mostly to recoil. I could barely tell the difference. The better trigger on the 1911 would make up for whatever minute difference there was.

You would probably feel a difference with different calibers out of the same gun--but who carries a 9mm 1911 anyway?

On a related note: when I find a bag of $100 bills on the sidewalk--should be any day now--I'm thinking of ignoring my purist sensibilities and getting a Baer Heavyweight Monolith in 9mm. Should shoot like a compensated cap gun...

 

[halvey]

This is all just talk and theory...Get a timer. Go to the range and shoot.

Well, if we all did that boards like this would become obsolete.

 

[Ankeny]

Grab a 9mm and a .45. Get a timer. Go to the range and shoot.

That's what I did. The drill was simply two rounds on each of two targets, from the holster. One was at five yards, the other widely spaced to the side and out a bit further. I shot this drill a lot.

I used a G19, CZ75 in 9mm, a Les Baer PII .45 tricked out and a Kimber Pro Carry CDP. I also shot the .45 pistols with my 168 power factor gamer loads and Federal HydraShok self defense ammo.

I already knew I would post the best scores on something like the IDPA classifier with the Baer and weenie ammo. That combination was the fastest on the four round drill I set up. The second fastest combination was the full size gun with full boat loads.

When all was said and done,I decided to continue carrying the light weight 1911 style gun even though it was not the best performer in the speed department. Why? Because the pistol is in a decent chambering, .45 Auto, it is light, and I shoot it well enough.

FWIW, the time to the first shot is for all purposes the same with each gun as is the first split. The transition to the second target is almost the same, but the split on the second target is a bit slower with the light weight gun because my grip starts to erode. The difference on the drill is only about a quarter of a second for all four rounds. In the gun games that can add up, but on the street I'll sacrifice the time for other considerations.

 

[NMGlocker]

The one problem I can see as far as civilian defence goes is explaining four hits on an attacker in court.

That is why I opt for a 45ACP.

wildehond

Tell me, oh wise one, exactly how many shots is it going to take to stop an aggressor?

How about these guys?

Boise, Idaho. 9-20-97. Traffic stop to shooting.

Brothers Craig and Doug Brodrick killed. Officers Winegar wounded, Stall killed. Bad guys hit 32 times w 45 ACP JHPs before they went down.

One brother took 25 hits of 45 ACP JHPs in two volleys as he walked around his car, the other took 7 hits of 45 ACP JHPs, of 52 total rounds fired by 7 officers. Brothers returned fire w 9 millimeters, wounding one officer and killing another in the gunfight.

 

[jc2]

Even more recently, there was the guy that took three good hits from top of the line .45 ACP ammo (RA45P), walked into his house, proceeded to fire another 30 shots, and refused to surrender when SWAT arrived--they contained him and allowed him to bleed out. There is absolutely NO guarantee a .45 ACP will stop an attacker with one or two shots (and there is no guarantee a 9x19 won't)--that whole line of reasoning is ridiculous.

 

[1911Tuner]

Extremes

A case history: (Before this one gets too far off-topic to salvage)

Brothers Craig and Doug Brodrick killed. Officers Winegar wounded, Stall killed. Bad guys hit 32 times w 45 ACP JHPs before they went down.
_______________________

These things happen, but it's an extreme circumstance. For every one of these incidents, you can find 10 in which the bad guy went down like a sack of wet laundry after being shot in the shoulder with a .22 short.
Let us try to stick to "Most Likely" occurrences...
________________________

A quote:

There is absolutely NO guarantee a .45 ACP will stop an attacker with one or two shots.

Neither is there any guarantee that a given attacker will drop with 2 or 3
body shots from a .308 or "Ought-Six". The notion that every incident and
every bad guy is going to require being shot to ribbons is as ridiculous as assuming that any handgun will guarantee a one-shot stop.


Okay...back to the topic. Wildehond and Tuner...Stop hijackin' the thread!

 

[Preacherman]

I can only cite experience gained in 18 years of civil-unrest confrontations, including being (unwillingly!) present at rather more than 100 gunfights, some as a participant, most as an observer. I've also been shot more than once, all with 9mm. or lesser calibers - and I'm still here, which might say something...

In general, I saw 9mm. (hardball and 1980's-vintage JHP such as Winchester Silvertip, Federal 9BP, etc.) produce poor "instant stop" results. Frequently, half-a-dozen or more rounds would be required, and even this did not guarantee that the target would be out of the fight immediately. I saw more than one occasion where a machete-wielding BG took six or more rounds of 9mm to COM - and they were good hits, too, shredding heart, lungs and other organs - yet still survived and stayed on his feet long enough to eviscerate the shooter. Not pretty...

On the other hand, major calibers (.44 Special, .45 ACP and Colt, etc.) tended to produce good stopping results with one to two hits to COM - and it didn't seem to matter much whether JHP or hardball or SWC rounds were used. The targets seemed to go down faster and harder, and were much less likely to get up again and be troublesome.

(.357 Magnum loads seemed to perform about as well as the big bore stuff, provided they were full-house loads. The 158gr. JHP's seemed to over-penetrate with monotonous regularity, but still did a number on the target, while the lighter JHP's were OK, but sometimes not fully effective on hopped-up attackers. For this reason, I prefer the Winchester Silvertip 145gr. load in my .357's today - "best of both worlds" sort of thing.)

I know and accept that current JHP technology has improved tremendously over what was available in the 1980's: but as a result of my experience, I remain viscerally distrustful of the 9mm. as a "stopping" round. Sure, it's as lethal as any other handgun round: but how quickly?

I tend to want my handgun "stopping" calibers to begin with the numeral "4", with the exception of .357 Magnum, where I'll take a full load of good 145gr. Winchester Silvertip JHP anyday, and feel very comfortable with it. For backup, I'll take a 9mm. or .38 Special compact handgun, but I won't fully trust it - that's why it's a backup to something more potent!

As to rate of fire: I want to hit with something effective. Given that requirement, I'll practice until I'm sure I can do so. I can certainly obtain hits faster with a lower-recoiling round, but if those hits aren't necessarily as effective as bigger calibers, why bother? Practice, practice, practice...

 

[JohnKSa]

take say a Glock 26 and a Kimber Ultra CDP, and I'll bet you see the gap open up considerably

I agree. Even here we see .45 shooters admitting their times with a 9 are faster. Shrinking the gun is only going to make the time differences more pronounced...

 

[Haycreek]

Rate of fire vs caliber 9mm 6 quick shots vs 45 2 slow

Greeting, IMHO : MY own experience is that a .45 ACP 5 inch govt. will be on target as quickly as the same number fired from a Glock 17. The difference is so small that the reciever will not notice any difference. Next: It is my personal experience that a +P+ 9 mm will not come close to what a hollow point full power 44 mag will do from my 8 inch revolver. Next: muliple shots during a life and death defence shooting is likely to be "normal", because the threatened person, may fire muliple shot very fast before he stops to consider whether or not the assailent is finished. After it is over, he may not KNOW how many shots he fired in self defence.

 

[wildehond]

NMGlocker

1 I never said I was wise
2 It is my personal choice. I did not say it is what everone should do.
3 One shot through the hart will stop an attacker. If there is no fresh blood in his brain he will stop. A shot through the heart stops a cape buff!
4 a 45 bullet should make a bigger hole it the heart.

So stop worrying about which gun is best. Buy one you like. Buy ammo with the rest of your money and learn to shoot it well. Then you should have a better chance of surviving a gun fight. I gun fight is not fare and it is not always the best one that wins, but you can increase your chances to live through it.

The 1911 in 45acp is the handgun I prefer to use.

I like glocks. I personally think that the G17 is one of the best hanguns ever designed. I just shoot better with a 1911 in 45.

I shall be sighing off now. I thought we are free so give our opinion, but it does not look like it. I have better things to do with my time. I have to prepare for a para shoot on Saturday anyway.

wildehond (a.k.a the dumb one)

 

[pbgear]

excessive force...

I am wondering if to a jury it would appear more of a justification to the suing relatives of the perp/decedant that "excessive force" was used by the victim if the shooter were to pump a perp with six 9mm rounds vs. a double-tap with a .45?

My first post, and simply another way to look at this thread. Regards.

 

[jc2]

We can play games with how a DA and/or jury might spin things to Hell freezes over, for example, "Ladies and gentlemen of jury, the accused purchased and used .45 calibre handgun, a cartridge intended for the military to use in wartime, because his intent was to kill the victim," or "Ladies and gentlement of the jury, the accused sought and out purchased the biggest, deadliest cartridge he could find--a .45 designed for military use!"

Bottom line is with service (full-size) weapon the differences in rate of fire will be minimal (but it will take more training, practice and dedication to maintain proficiency with a .45 ACP), but as the weapons become smaller, the differences in rate of fire will become greater (and the the .45 ACP will require even more training and practice to maintain proficiency).

When we get right down to it, both rounds generally work and work well (for the 9x19, I would add with current generation preimium bullets), and both rounds have failed spectacularly. There's no great likelihood that you would required more than two or three good hits with either.

While some .45 ACP aficianados seem to be concentrating on a scenario involving one target (e. g., "six hits with a 9x19 vs. two hits with a .45 ACP"--and tacityly acknowledging 9x19 has a higher rate of fire), they seem to be ignoring the possiblity of multiple targets--six hits on three targets vs. two hits on one target.

 

[NMshooter]

9mm vs. .45? How about .50BMG at 500 rpm vs. 40mm at 350 rpm. I like that argument better. When it comes to my one and only butt I don't care if I have to empty the magazine and reload twice, run out of ammo, and run away, so long as I am around to argue what caliber I should have been carrying after the fact.

 

[halvey]

If your worried about rate of fire, just get some of those "low recoil" Federal ammo or download the .45. If you need "more ammo", just a full capacity .45.

The basic premis of the question is flawed as are the solutions.

I've never had a problem shooting one faster or slower. As a matter of fact, I can clear a pins faster with a .45 than a .22. And this is swapping topends so I am using the same trigger, frame, grip etc.