RE: Fragmenting 5.45?

[Leif Runenritzer]

I've lately concluded that 5.45x39mm is a cartridge of limited use[, but i'm now reconsidering this]. [I had based this] on my reading that it was designed to tumble because tumbling was [. . .] believed to do great damage. It was later found by Fackler that this [might not be] true, and 5.45 is little better than a bullet from a handgun, whereas the similar 5.56 bullet can do greater damage because it fragments. Thinking commercial ammunition might be different, i asked Wolf and Barnaul if their 5.45 fragments, and this morning, i got this reply from Wolf Ammunition:

Yes our bullet has a lead core. Yes it fragments in soft targets.

Sincerely,

WOLF Ammunition

-----Original Message-----
From: [my name] [mailto:Luguberos æʔ herzeleid dɑːʔ net]
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fragmenting 5.45?

Does Wolf 5.45x39mm ammunition (as exported for private use in the US)
have
a lead core? If so, does the bullet fragment in soft targets? I'm trying
to
decide if an AK-74 is good for anything but target-shooting. Thanks for
reading.

Now, i've already moved on and have my heart set on an M4gery, but i felt it important to share this, since i've belittled 5.45 here more than once, lately. And i still wonder how true this reply is; i've read somewhere on THR that Wolf .223 doesn't fragment because it's jacket is too thick, and if so, i wonder why 5.45 would be any different.

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I think your statement that 5.45 is a "cartridge of limitied use" is a bit suspect. 5.45 chambered AK74's are fantastic shooters for multiple reasons (good accuracy, almost no recoil, etc...) and the ballistics are fantastic.

Remember, Wolf 5.45 is not representative of 5.45x39.5 as a whole - if you are really interested in testing the limits of the round, you might want to hand load or try and find some high quality Russian loaded ammo (it is around...I have some).

 

[JesseL]

Isn't speculation about the terminal performance of military FMJ ammo in civilian use nearly moot (unless you plan to use milsurp ammo exclusively)? You can use soft-point, hollow-point, ballistic tip, etc ammo with no worry about violating the Hague Conventions.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I'm pretty sure a round or two of 5.45mm through the sternum or elsewhere in the old Center o' Mass will be quite sufficient to take someone out of the fight. The 5.56mm fragmentation is grossly overstated on the internet, really -- the round, COM, at most ranges (even outside the fragmentation velocity and all that) tends to put people down.

 

[LaEscopeta]

...tumbling was mistakenly believed to do great damage. It was later found by Fackler that this is not true,...

Source for this? And has anyone else found tumbling (yawing, turning sideways after entering a soft target) does not increase the frontal area of the bullet pushing against and damaging tissue?

[rant mode on] It used to be in science no one believed an experiment until it was repeated by several independent investigators, all of whom got the same result. If some investigators got different results, the variations in methods, equipment, location, time of year, etc, were studied until a theory was developed that explained ALL the results. Now the last results are always believed, and all previous results are dismissed as “not true” with no attempt to learn if or why they were not true. [rant mode off]

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

I should have worded my opening differently. The reason i posted this thread is because i've belittled 5.45 in two other threads, but now i'm reconsidering what i thought about it in comparison to 5.56. My reasons for choosing against 5.45 are no longer valid in light of the email i got. I made changes to my post in brackets.

 

[GTSteve03]

Even though Wolf has a lead core, I think the problem lies more in the jacket.

The Russian 5.45 (and their export 5.56 from what I've read) has the problem of having a rather thick copper jacket over the lead core. This is in contrast to the domestic US ammo which often has a much thinner jacket. This thinner jacket is what helps the 5.56 (and I guess the 5.45, theoretically) to fragment at high velocities.

Since the Russian 5.45 probably has a thick copper jacket, even with the lead core it is doubtful it will fragment reliably.

 

[El Tejon]

Inside pistol range it is as the Afghans say, "the poison bullet."

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Military loads in 5.45 are not have not been designed for fragmentation. The wounding mechanism is different. The bullet has an air pocket inside the tip. When the bullet strikes a medium denser than air the lead and steel core shifts forward, upsetting the bullet and causing it to tumble. The bullet is around an inch long. The tumbling as the bullet passes through a body causes pretty severe wounds and is less dependent on impact velocity than the 5.56mm, the primary wounding mechanism of which is fragmentation.

Are you sure that Fackler claimed poor wounding capability for the 5.45mm? I think you may be confusing his results in gelatin testing of the 5.45mm with his results for 7.62x39 Type PS Ball. The latter produces a much smaller permanent cavity than you'd expect from a .30 caliber rifle projectile, one more along the lines of a pistol bullet.

 

[Spencer]

If the bullet is 1 inch long, and it turns sideways somewhere inside a human body (possibly over and over again), I for sure wouldn't want to get hit by it.