alohachris
Member
Another Washington Post Anti Hatchet Job...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/23/AR2010102302994.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/23/AR2010102302994.html
Realco guns tied to 2,500 crimes in D.C. and Maryland
- Thread starter alohachris
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
If Realco is selling that many guns that can be traced to crimes, then it should be scutinized by the ATF. As noted in the article, however, Realco has a good record with the ATF (within the regs) and has been cooperative.
armoredman
Member
They don't make salt grains big enough....
Maybe this store pays guys in jail to advertise for them, but more likely it has great prices and possibly some African American employees (not trying to stir up a racial deal, but anecdotally a lot of gun shops I have been to do not seem excessively friendly to black guys and I have seen one gun shop owner stare one down the whole time he was in the store buying ammo without ever offering to help). It is not a stores fault if they obey the law and some woman comes in to buy a gun who has no criminal record. It is tough to say how far a shop should go to weed out straw purchases. If someone comes in asking for a specific model are you supposed to show them something completely different and see if they know the difference? That scares away legit customers and people new to firearms. Selling a gun to a felon needs to be a more serious crime. The ATF has the record of a gun sale, if they just briefly looked into the original purchaser to see if there was any relationship between that person and the felon caught with the gun then they could prosecute straw sales and put the buyer in jail for up to 5 years. The laws are on the books, why not enforce them instead of putting the responsibility on a gun shop to screen every customer?
MikeNice
Member
Cougfan, I couldn't have said it any better.
If they can trace the gun to the store, they can trace it to the buyer. If the buyer didn't do the final crime an investigation should start. Was the gun reported stolen? Was there a relationship between the buyer and the shooter? It would take a little time but if the laws were enforced we wouldn't have these kinds of problems.
If they can trace the gun to the store, they can trace it to the buyer. If the buyer didn't do the final crime an investigation should start. Was the gun reported stolen? Was there a relationship between the buyer and the shooter? It would take a little time but if the laws were enforced we wouldn't have these kinds of problems.
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Buck Snort
Member
Maybe somebody should do a similar investigation and see which car dealships sell the most cars used in bank robberies then paint them a the criminal's fellow traveller?
staggerlee213
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In a city where owning a handgun at all was a crime is it any surprise there would be so many so called 'crime guns?'
The way the writer keeps referring to how many guns were 'recovered by police' numerous times is also highly prejudicial
The way the writer keeps referring to how many guns were 'recovered by police' numerous times is also highly prejudicial
Funny thing...
They read, "DC gun store [xyz] sold 2,500 guns over a one year period that were used in crimes in the DC area" and conclude that there sure is something wrong with gun store [xyz].
I read, "DC gun store [xyz] sold 2,500 guns over a one year period that were used in crimes in the DC area" and conclude that there sure is a lot of crime in the DC area.
You see, gun shops in my home town sell THOUSANDS more guns than RealCo but fewer guns are used in crimes, because there are fewer crimes per person in my home town. It isn't about sales, it's about law enforcement.
Funny thing, isn't it?
They read, "DC gun store [xyz] sold 2,500 guns over a one year period that were used in crimes in the DC area" and conclude that there sure is something wrong with gun store [xyz].
I read, "DC gun store [xyz] sold 2,500 guns over a one year period that were used in crimes in the DC area" and conclude that there sure is a lot of crime in the DC area.
You see, gun shops in my home town sell THOUSANDS more guns than RealCo but fewer guns are used in crimes, because there are fewer crimes per person in my home town. It isn't about sales, it's about law enforcement.
Funny thing, isn't it?
FROGO207
Member
Yep--the written word can sway the thoughts of the reader when skillfully used. It is far easier to let the writer lead you to their predetermined conclusion than thinking on your own.:banghead:
22-rimfire
Member
2500 sounds like a large number, but it was over 18 years. Realco said they have a high firearm sales volume which makes sense. Maybe they have good prices.
(Quote from the Washington Post article referenced above.)
About 50% of the sales traced to dealers in Maryland and Virginia. Seems reasonable considering the proximity of the District of Columbia to MD and VA.
But the most important point is that Realco has been the subject of more than one investigation by police or the ATF and other than technical violations, they follow the law. What more does the Washington Post or anyone want? What do most liberal anti-gun newspapers and individuals want?
I guess if they sell all these guns in a high crime area, something illegal must be going on. It always seems to be the FFL dealer or the gunshow's fault, not the buyer. It is the old story and one that is repeated over and over again. As said, it is a hatchet job on Realco and honest FFL dealers. Guilt by association. When does personal responsibility start?
(Quote from the Washington Post article referenced above.)
About 50% of the sales traced to dealers in Maryland and Virginia. Seems reasonable considering the proximity of the District of Columbia to MD and VA.
But the most important point is that Realco has been the subject of more than one investigation by police or the ATF and other than technical violations, they follow the law. What more does the Washington Post or anyone want? What do most liberal anti-gun newspapers and individuals want?
I guess if they sell all these guns in a high crime area, something illegal must be going on. It always seems to be the FFL dealer or the gunshow's fault, not the buyer. It is the old story and one that is repeated over and over again. As said, it is a hatchet job on Realco and honest FFL dealers. Guilt by association. When does personal responsibility start?
InkEd
Member
Noticing they keep saying "traced back" throughout the article.
It doesn't mention how many non-original owners and stolen gun reports were included in the ownership history report they carried out. If you "trace back" FAR ENOUGH, of course a gun is going to have been bought a gun store. This works with almost any product a d blaming the original maker of product is dumb.
If you eat a bad-smelling piece of meat and get sick, who do you blame? (You knew it smelled rotten.) Is it the butcher, grocery store, delivery driver, warehouse worker, food distributor, slaughter house, the cattle buyer or maybe the rancher. Based on the aforementioned logic, the USDA should harass the farmer and the grocery store should be shutdown. It is an absurd comparision BUT so is the idea behind the original story.
It doesn't mention how many non-original owners and stolen gun reports were included in the ownership history report they carried out. If you "trace back" FAR ENOUGH, of course a gun is going to have been bought a gun store. This works with almost any product a d blaming the original maker of product is dumb.
If you eat a bad-smelling piece of meat and get sick, who do you blame? (You knew it smelled rotten.) Is it the butcher, grocery store, delivery driver, warehouse worker, food distributor, slaughter house, the cattle buyer or maybe the rancher. Based on the aforementioned logic, the USDA should harass the farmer and the grocery store should be shutdown. It is an absurd comparision BUT so is the idea behind the original story.
alohachris
Member
We need to write a similar article about a high-volume automobile dealership that sells cars to people with poor driving records and whose 'crime-cars' are later responsible for the majority of traffic infractions, DUI's and vehicular homicides in a given area.
It would be useful, even as a poe.
It would be useful, even as a poe.
22-rimfire
Member
As I recall, in Maryland there is a gun registry which is run by the State Police. The same thing is present in PA for handguns. That is the database that the article refers to.
xcgates
Member
One bit of information that would be good to know, is the volume they move relative to the other stores. (EDIT::In the same local area, different parts of the state won't have the same crime problems, and crime is NOT the problem of the store. Would you blame a car dealer for a sports car that gets stolen, then is in a chase?)
They claim that the number is four times as big as the next biggest dealer, have they considered that they may sell 4X as many guns due to good service, good prices, and good selection?
And I don't think I saw any definition of "recoverd". In what circumstances were the police "recovering" the firearms?
And as far as someone coming in knowing what they want, I plan on shooting as many handguns as I can first to get to know what I want, then walking into a store, pointing at a specific gun, and say "I would like to buy that." Does that mean I am a straw purchaser?
They claim that the number is four times as big as the next biggest dealer, have they considered that they may sell 4X as many guns due to good service, good prices, and good selection?
And I don't think I saw any definition of "recoverd". In what circumstances were the police "recovering" the firearms?
And as far as someone coming in knowing what they want, I plan on shooting as many handguns as I can first to get to know what I want, then walking into a store, pointing at a specific gun, and say "I would like to buy that." Does that mean I am a straw purchaser?
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buck460XVR
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- 10,085
....only if you cannot legally purchase/own a firearm and you have someone else buy the firearm for you. Pretty basic.
I assume there are many reasons that Realco is tied to many of the guns used in local crimes, with amount of sales relative to other gun stores in the area only one of them. Selection and availability of cheap disposable handguns and sales personal that are not smart enough to recognize a "straw" purchase or just don't care are probably some others. Being located in an area that has such a extraordinary high crime rate probably helps . Remember also, just because Realco is doing everything legally doesn't make them ethical. I'm sure most of it comes down to making money. The example shown in the beginning of the article is a flagrant example of a straw purchase if indeed it proceeded as described. For a salesman to ignore or not notice this despite all the preceding investigations and allegations of straw purchases is hard to comprehend until one realizes how few cases of this are ever prosecuted. So is the idea of being a poor college student working weekends in a gun shop facing the possibility of pissin' off a gangbanger..........
Jolly Rogers
Member
I find it interesting that this hatchet job centers on Maryland gun stores instead of the usual targets, Virginia gun stores and Gun Shows. Although the Virginia area stores are mentioned in the story they weren't the primary target this time.
Joe
Joe
Blackhawk30
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It will be Virginia's turn on Monday.Last part is on Tuesday.Probably a sob story on how the ATF can't do anything to the evil gun dealers because they are protected by the NRA.
armoredman
Member
To "recover" something, one must have owned it before, same as "buying back". The proper term would be "confiscated", as you may confiscate illegally held items. The terms are deliberately misused to give the impression the government legally owns or owned all the firearms, and thus has the right to take them "back".
Why aren't straw buyers prosecuted, in the article all the way back on the fifth page the buyer of the gun in question admitted to the police to turning over the gun immediately after pruchase. Also, some marketing to the women (it seems like most straw purchasers seem to be women) letting them know that buying a gun specifically to sell to someone with a record is a crime.
thanatopsis
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after reading the article i don't find it that bad, and here is why, they repeatedly mention how shops refuse sales and also discuses the fact that they are selling lots of firearms. are there sins of omission by the author sure "Crime Guns" for example is never defined. but some of the bashing of the article as being a hatchet job as opposed to a flawed attempt at describing why it is hard to enforce gun laws and or how criminals still get their hands on fire arms.
KBintheSLC
Member
I wonder how many of these so-called "crime guns" have real victims attached. I mean, just having the gun is considered a "crime" in these areas.
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